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Mutual Aid Problems
I would like for some veteran firemen to inlighten me on something. On a call that has the Law enforcement, Fire dept, ems and rescue squad dispatched to an mva with injuries and possible entrapment, what is your main objective as far as working to free the victims.. My problem is we are trained to the fullest extent in vehicle extraction. We arrive on scene to find rescue squad with extraction tools out and not following any guide lines of safety. Such as, we are not allowed to even think about working on extraction with out proper ppe, full turn outs, boots, gloves, safety glasses plus shield. They wear none of this. My question is, What do you do in this case?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Shareef Abdu Nur on
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As an officer, I would first ensure that all of our members are in the required PPE. I would then report to whoever is in command and ask him/her for a job assignment. I would then say, respectfully, "Do you mind if we handle the extrication since we are already in our gear?" I would say it in such a way as not to embarass him/her or come off as questioning their authority. If they agreed/disagreed, we conduct ourselves professionally, complete the call, return to quarters and then I would call that Department and ask for the Officer that was on scene and we would discuss the importance of PPE respectfully. I would tell him/her that I would expect the same out of them if they see me or my crew slipping in regards to safety. Everyone has different techniques in regards to operations, but safety should be a standard. As an officer, I am not just concerned for our members, but for all members.
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Permalink Reply by Trainer on
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First we need to address proper PPE, it may not be turnout gear. I'll state here that we use full turnout but all of the classes I have been to, jump suit, gloves, steel toed shoes, goggles and hard hat are also approved gear, oh and don't forget the vest...anyone working with anything less should be pulled from the operation. Now I fully understand your problem, myself, as a high ranking(not top dog) line officer will point out mistakes, maybe even tell someone to get the hell away, I'll make my case with his chief latter, I don't care what they think I can afford to be a prick, but as a firefighter you may not want to do this, but point it out to someone, maybe even bite your tongue, wait till after and ask WHY, and politely tell them this is not the way were taught. If you run a lot of calls with this dept, 2 things will happen, they will start getting it right or quit calling you.
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Just like first responders would pass patient care to a higher level EMT, you should have a guideline in place that says, once your unit shows up, you get a sit-rep and take over patient extrication.
Is it left to whomever arrives first or don't you think the better idea would be to have a plan in place that addresses the issue?
Sounds like it could be a royal cluster mess without it.
Regardless, anyone not properly geared up would be told to leave the area immediately.
TCSS.
Art
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Permalink Reply by caleb on
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we are required to wear full PPE i quess it depends on were you live were i live we do not have a rescue squad and our ems doesnt carry extrication equipment we were always told cause of this that we are in charge of the scene until the extrication is done and than it is ems's scene and they are in charge and we always have ems personell close by even though we do have emts and first respnders we have the ems personell close by to advise as we do extrication of any medical issues they see as we work i have lived in a place were the fire departments dont do extrication and they have a rescue squad just for hose calls but even they have to wear the proper PPE that they are required to wear
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Permalink Reply by Rick Bibb on
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I want to thank each and everyone of you for your input. I know now that I have left a few things out.
If we get a call in the city limits of this nature our dept is first alarm. Our dept has our own extraction tools. In the city limits if we are first alarm the scene is the fire depts., the patients belong to ems of course. Our dept consists of certified first responders as well as emts, first on scene will do scene size up and safety. Then we do patient care as needed till ems arrives. I'm sure a lot of this is going to be the proper sop,s put into operation, but there's times the rescue squad needs to be put in their place, A lot of our training is open class to the squad and any other dept. that would like to join in. I'm sure most of you know how that goes. We might have a hand full of outside participation. We are all trained to conduct ourselves in a professional matter, but there is times when you have to really bite your tongue. I'll check back in to see what else i've failed to mention and see if what i've added here helps clear the air with this particular situation. Till then stay safe brothers and sisters.
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Permalink Reply by Bill Deutsch on
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I agree PPE is a must for exctrications. I believe every agency must give careful thought to just what the appropriate PPE might be, and SOG's must address this issue. Once the risks of fire, air bag detonation, and electrocution at a scene are mitigated, then coveralls or other clothing that will protect responders from scene hazards but provide more mobility might be appropriate. I've got a big problem with everybody going to a wreck without turn outs. The nomex coveralls may not burn if there's a fire, but they don't offer any significant thermal protection, or head protection, or eye protection. There are times when our full turn out set can get in the way and tempt a responder to shed bulky stuff and chance injury. Back in the dark ages when I took my first extrication class, the first thing the instructors did was ask us this riddle: How can you tell how many Firefighters are working inside and Extrication? A: Count the helmets on the roof.
It is the job of IC or Safety Officer to keep that from happening.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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There has to be ONE agency in charge of the incident. Here, there is a fine line between LE and Fire being responsible for an incident.
For example, if the MVA is relatively minor and traffic control is needed until the vehicles can be removed the FD works with LE to control traffic. However, if there is a hazard at the scene - fuel spills, extrication, wires doen, the IC is the Fire Chief or highest ranking officer until the hazard is mitigated or the extrication completed.
In your situation I assume the "rescue squad" is an agency that carries tools for vehicle extrication and such, and has no fire suppression capability. If so, and it's your fire district, I think your chief is in command of those troops and needs to communicate that to the squad. The IC is responsible for everyone's safety at the incident.
One approach might be for you to arrive on scene, walk up to one of the unprotected RS members and say "hey Dude, let me run that tool while you get your gear on..."
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Permalink Reply by Loyd Dittfurth on
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the best extrication class that i have ever taken wasnt how to extricate the patient but how to extricate the patient with out killing yourself or your crew.
The obstacles went as fallows (live patients acting the roles of victoms)
Electericity
Air bag
Fuel lines (some older model foriegn cars had them in the A post up and over)
Frantic bystandards
Gun shots
Fire
stabilization
outside enviormental hazards
and my personal favorite that got me twice
Improper PPE
Forgot to drop my shield before i cut
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Permalink Reply by Jon Heckler on
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My thinking on this would if it is in my district then its my call to make sure things are done per sops.Also if it is a mutaual district thing then i would make contact with the person in charge and advise them of the proper way and safety guide lines that are in place to protect all responders and if that dont work then you need to form a commitee or something to address issue.I know in my fire dist. we mandate that full gear is in place and we have a saftey officer and a asst, saftey officer to make sure sops are being followed. Also if i arrive on scene to find this type of case i would pull the team back and let my team show them what to do.
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Permalink Reply by Rescue601 on
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Sounds like there is a lack of Incident Command on these calls. Who generally calls command on these scenes?
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Permalink Reply by R Griffin on
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Rick,
Keep up the good work keeping your guys protected with full PPE as for the other bunch,sounds like they need to get up to speed with some training. If your men wear full PPE all the time you will begin to be the respected ones on scene and with all the media taking pictures with your guys doing the right thing and the others being the way they do it will catch up with them.Talking about or trying to get them to change is out of the question. You make them look bad by looking good. BE SAFE!!!
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Permalink Reply by Jay Nicholson on
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"Also if i arrive on scene to find this type of case i would pull the team back and let my team show them what to do."
Great way of throwing gas on an already volatile situation. Command and control is there for a reason. Unless your the designated 'safety' officer you really shouldn't be pulling crews off and replacing them. No matter what they are doing. Report your observations to the IC, assign your crew to the task given by the IC and then debrief after the incident.
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