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Mutual Aid Problems
I would like for some veteran firemen to inlighten me on something. On a call that has the Law enforcement, Fire dept, ems and rescue squad dispatched to an mva with injuries and possible entrapment, what is your main objective as far as working to free the victims.. My problem is we are trained to the fullest extent in vehicle extraction. We arrive on scene to find rescue squad with extraction tools out and not following any guide lines of safety. Such as, we are not allowed to even think about working on extraction with out proper ppe, full turn outs, boots, gloves, safety glasses plus shield. They wear none of this. My question is, What do you do in this case?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rick Bibb on
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Rescue601,
When we arrive on scene either the fire chief or asst. chief take role of IC. But as you can imagine this rescue squad don't understand the meaning of IC or what it's put in place for. It's been mentioned in some of the responses that I've got, they are cowboys or glory hounds. We've (fire dept) has just recently been told that the rescue squad are just now taking the NIMS courses. We are in big hopes that this might open there eyes to what kind of mess they put us in, not to mention the people in need of help. On top of all this the proper ppe is what really takes the cake. If I was just a plan ole son-of-a-#%*!# I have some pics of these guys training that I would post just to let you all see what kind of people I'm talking about. One pic is of a man standing on top of a car in shorts,t-shirt and tennis shoes with a set of shears. Another dressed about the same except flip flops instead of shoes popping a door with the spreader. I kid you not ! And this is how they show up to an accident or a rescue. I know that when you have combining depts. that your supposed to work together but I also know your supposed to train together and getting them to participate is like pulling teeth. Since I started this post, my chief and the mayor are in a process of writing a sop that will give our dept the athority to cancel other depts in the city limits. This is going to really piss the squad off but so be it.
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Permalink Reply by Rescue601 on
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Is this situation actual mutual aid or is it automatic aid? Either way you must have some sort of agreement that can be revoked.
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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I am not sure anyone asked this question yet, "Who's town was this in? Was it your town or their town?
Now if the operation is in your town, then fix the safety issues and get the damn job done. If it is in your town then call a meeting with all the departments and train on ICS. Your new SOP isn;t gonna work if they don't follow any rules now. That is being reactive to an old school problem... lets create a policy. Your issue is training and understanding how the way things are gonna run with ICS, PPE and tools and equipment.
Wow this isn't that difficult to fix just takes someone with the motivation to get it done...
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To be honest with you I personally think it's scanner junkies trying there dead level best to beat us to our call. If it's paged out as an mva they show up like flies on poop.Although, to answer your question, It would've be an automatic aid if there was multiple vehicles or possible entrapment under the old SOP, but now under our new SOP it will be a Fire dept IC on scene call whether or not to dispatch them out to our scene. We have 3 fully rigged engines and 16 men that I know are more than capable of handling just about anything thrown at us. I'm pretty sure the rescue squads rodeo days are over here. There will be times when we will need them i'm sure, but it's going to be a rude slap in the face of whats going to be expected of them when they do show up. Like reporting to the IC for thier specific duty.
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Permalink Reply by Loyd Dittfurth on
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wow thats gonna suck for them lol
i hate scanner junkies my dept back home has 2 the firemarshall who is also the training officer (not worth a darn at it) and the fire chief (whos going threw a midlife crisis) they will hear about a fire and call and bug the people until they let em go its pathetic really but they dont see it that way yes they are always glad when we showed up and there was somthin to do but it got to the point that whenever any one got paged out for a fire they were right there beggn to go
now i aint gonna say i wasnt there on the days when you pretty well knew that it was gonna be a big one but some of it got a lil bit rediculous
I dont think they do that any more
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I wish it was as simple as you want to make this out to be. And to be frank, we do get the damn job done. Yes this is in our town. This is a small town, so everyone pretty much knows you or knows somebody that knows somebody, you get the picture ? The rescue squad is run buy the somebodies that know everybody and think they run everything. Our fire dept was a vol. dept up till about 4 years ago and now we're full time and paid on call firefighter/emt's. This has thrown a big wrench in thier little who knows who program because our chief don't give a shit who you are. With this being a small town the fire dept is going through all the proper channels and paper work to make sure these new implemented SOP'S are being properly placed so that there is no confussion with other agencies. Believe me, we have the motivation, its just gonna take a little time to get all the t's crossed and i's dotted.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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Rick, please clarify something for me: Is the rescue squad dispatched by the County/city/town/village that you cover, or do they self dispatch? "Scanner junkies" caught my eye in an earlier reply.
If these people self-dispatch, they obviously do not have a legal duty to act and therefore have no jurisdiction. Your chief could probably have them removed from the scene legally.
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Permalink Reply by Katie Hueston on
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It is the IC on scene or safety officer (if you have one) to make sure all personnel who approach the vehicle are in their PPE. In this instance, I would have spoke to the IC and expressed my uneasiness with the situation and asked to relieve the firefighter's without the PPE on so that they could either get fully dressed or to make sure that the scene remains safe for everyone while extrication is ongoing. PPE should always be worn in this situation because of the numerous hazards on scene after an MVA. I would also speak with the person in charge of that Dept. after the call about the lack of PPE and let them know that you want only people who abide by all safety guidelines working on a scene with your dept. (or if you aren't in charge, maybe the chief could be the one to speak to whoever is in charge). Not only is it not safe, but it looks bad for firefighters to not follow their own rules in regards to safety. In our situation, the fire dept. with jurisdiction is in charge of the scene, and if it's my scene you either come dressed to play or stay home!
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Permalink Reply by SFPD9101 on
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Rick, who is typically in command? Are there any policies in place for establishing command, assignments, etc? You mentioned mutual aid in the title so I assume you are assisting another department or district? I don't have the right type of experience with this situation as we are fire, rescue, and EMS and don't typically request mutual aid for MVC's (although it has happened). Often times traffic control too since the patient may be packaged and gone before law enforcement is on scene. Ultimately, the IC is responsible for the safety of ALL persons involved. I'm not sure if your case would have a safety officer established or not but my crews would not participate in any activities deemed hazardous by the behavior of other responders on scene until the scene is safe and vice versa. Shareef is right as well, we have a moral obligation to look out for the safety of the other personnel on scene even if they don't want to practice scene safety. I don't know the whole situation, but judging by the number of different operational entities involved, things could be complicated with scene control. If you have written procedures you may wish to forward these to the other parties involved so they are aware of your requiements and might get the point. Otherwise, you are just going to have to address this with your organization and theirs to discuss the safety concerns to resolve the problems.
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In our state, the laws dictate who is in charge of an emergency scene and it is definately not the rescue squad. FD runs the show, play by our rules or get sent home, it is that easy. Been there done that.
So you are a FD, the Rescue Squad is a seperate entity, and so is the Ambulance Service? If so, sounds like someone needs to determine who is the AHJ, then train on ICS and identify who will be in charge EVERYTIME, and then explain what is expected of the support agencies that are coming to assist the AHJ.
This isn't really a mutual-aid issue. Mutual aid is when you request/accept services when needed and return the same level of services when called upon. This is a municipal government issue on who provides what services and who is in charge.
Here is a suggestion; consolidation.
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Sorry Katie, I've miss-lead you somewhere. It's not the fire dept we're having these problems with. It's a local rescue squad.
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