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"You Just Can't Walk In There"
Being I live in Maryland and a county that surrounds Washington, DC, we have areas that you just can't walk into.
We have a location in our fire dept's area that has been a mystery for years. When we would travel up the street and turn on to the road and past a gate to a single building with a tall radio tower next to it. It sat in a fenced in field which you could see cows grazing on this field for years.
We have heard stories where a crew from a fire dept that use to run the area, before our dept built a sub station in the area, decided to pay a call on this building for a fire inspection. Well one of the county officials got a call to come and get their fire truck and its crew off US Government Property before they go to jail.
The official showed up and two armed men got in the car and told them drive up to the building where the crew was under armed guards. They left and return to the station after much discussion.
A few years after the fire dept was call to respond to the building where they stop at the gate and two armed guards jump on. They asked for equipment off the truck and took it inside, then return it to the crew and escorted them off the property.
I have heard other stories where teens playing football kicked the football on to the field and one of them climb the fence and retrieved the ball, after which armed men showed up with a Jeep and grabbed the teen and took him up to the building for a while before being returned.
Over the years the property has changed. The radio tower is gone. There is a tall wall around the field. the gated has barriers to slow down vehicles and more buildings can be seen from the gate.
For years just a mile up the street from my house there use to be US Government Property. I wondered for years what it was. There were buildings and these pads with doors. Well back in the 50s the city of Washington DC was surrounded by Nike missle sites to shoot down Russian bombers.
One thing was a family who were members of our vol fire dept, bought part of the property to build homes on. Well the property was sold and then a shopping center was built on it.
I just wonder if anyother fire dept has a mystery area where you have had questions about what happens there?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Several fire departments have the rule that if they can't pre-plan a federal government occupancy that they will not fight fires that occur there, nor will they loan anyone else their equipment to do the same.
One of my old chiefs used to say "The line where you make us stop our pre-plan is the line we stop at when you have a fire."
The bottom line is that classified federal installations are NOT your responsibility for fire protection - they are the responsibility of the U.S. government.
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Permalink Reply by ashfire on
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I know this installation was around way before 9/11, but back in the 60s it was just alone building sitting in a open fenced in field. Since 9/11 this installation as changed so much we may never have to enter the property for any reason.
I believe way back the people working in there may have needed something the fire dept had and they didn't to handle a problem so the crew showed up and let them borrow some equipment and keep what was happening from being spread by firefighter gossip or tall tells that most of us will do.
Has to the old missle sites. Just imaine this. My fire company started in 1950 and their first fire unit was a open cab 1930 REO Speedwagon and later a 1930 Seagrave and a fire happen or incident happened on this missle site. Now the other depts had 1940 or 1950 apparatus. The military air base was 3 miles down the road. What could the volunteer crews have expected to do with a burning ground to air missle sitting on a luncher with the help of military crews?
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I think you're missing the point.
The government installation wasn't the responsibility of a community volunteer fire department in the 1940's and it's not your responsibility now.
Unless the feds give your department a contract, pay you for it, and give you training and security clearances, you have no obligation to respond, let alone loan equipment.
Bottom line - federal installations are outside of your jurisdiction.
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Permalink Reply by Bill Anderson on
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We have a facility that builds something fiberglass for the government. Manager came to a meeting one night and told us if it caught fire just surround and drown, don't worry about going inside. He was real evasive to questions about what they made and what chemicals/hazards we could encounter. We have'nt seen him since and we have no plan to pre plan the place. No cooperation, No problem.
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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Not true. The US Capitol HAS burned down before. They fought the fire then and we would fight the fire now. I'm not going to let the Capitol of this country or the White House burn down just because we haven't seen every room. Hell, even if we WERE allowed to see every room, it's impossible for every company in the city to preplan it themselves. The place is HUGE with countless underground levels and tunnels.
Also if I remember correctly, the Pentagon got hit on 9/11/01. DC firemen ran in there until they were literally pulled out. What do you think the nation would have said if they pulled up and said, "Oh, I didn't pre-plan this whole building. I'll just let it burn even though there's thousands of people inside."
So no, they are not outside of my jurisdiction. You need to start taking into account that not every fire department is run like yours.
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Apples and oranges.
You work for what is literally a federal city, not a community fire department, so the rules are different for your department.
As for 9/11, DC was mutual aid to Arlington, which is also apples to oranges since mutual aid pre-planning is the exception, not the rule.
You need to start taking into account that when I state that federal installations are not within the jurisdiction of a community volunteer fire department, I'm not talking about the large, career, federal fire department with which you're currently employed.
You also need to start taking into account that ashfire's community VFD isn't run like yours, and that my replies were specific to his department.
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Ben My dept was not inviolved in the incident which the fire dept attemped to do a inspection and let equipment be used by those that worked in the building. We ended up with the place after we built a substation in the area and have never attemped to approuch the place since that time. The other military operation was hard to miss with it being at a intersection in our community and built close to the street. If Martha Citizen seen smoke down the street and called the fire communications we had at the time our station and a few others would have been dispatched. So if they got there and the military stood in the street to stop them and other traffic then they may have not have to be involved but may have to protect the area around the place.
Our dept is part of a county combination fire system of career service and volunteer depts which work together as one dept.
We have a county fire chief appointed by our county exec and approved by the county council. The chief appoints his staff and all under them. We have bureaus and battalions and career staff along with volunteer members.
The volunteer depts own most of the stations and apparatus but the county does own some stations and apparatus so its not just the community fire company.
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No again.
DC was sent with Arlington immediately. Arlington is not a large department and handed the operations division over to DC almost immediately. So DC was calling those shots.
We are not a federal fire department, not even close. You do know this is an actual city right? Just because this is the capitol doesn't mean every building is a federal building.
It doesn't matter the department.(Even though his fire department is as big as mine. I volunteer for his, PG County, as well) There's government buildings everywhere in this country. We don't preplan every part of the government buildings, just like they may not. We can't get into all areas of most of them.
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Still apples and oranges. DC being sent to Arlington "immediately" is still mutual aid. The Pentagon is still not your first due and legally DC has no obligation to investigate access to the Pentagon, pre-plan it, or provide other services there. And regardless of who ran the operations branch, Arlington was still in command.
I understand very clearly DC's unique status as a federally-funded city fire department in our only national capital that is not within any of the 50 states. I used to be a firefighter in Maryland, not all that far from DC and can still find my way around DC without a map, BTW. Any way you slice it, DC is a unique outlier when we're discussing local FD response to federal installations.
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Permalink Reply by Greenman on
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Whether you make an interior attack, or just "surround and drown" any kind of government facility, particularly one where classified materials or information is processed or stored, everyone on the scene will be de-briefed and during the de-briefing everyone will be required to sign a non-disclosure statement. Basically obligating yourself to never disclose what you may, or may not, have seen in there.
No, you're not going to be able to pre-plan, but if the facility is a stand-alone building in your district, how is it NOT your department's responsibility to respond and fight a fire like for any other building? If the building isn't on a military base, it is up to local agencies to provide fire protection.Do you pre-plan federal buildings in cities, like a Federal Courthouse or office building? If you do, how many areas within those buildings are off-limits...unless there is a fire emergency in the building? Examples of this situation may include FBI offices, other government agencies which work with classified information, and even foreign consulates. In any case everyone on the scene will simply be de-briefed and required to sign a non-disclosure agreement.
So, yes, there are quite a few of these "off limits" areas all over the country.
When the SCIF building burned down on Fort Meade about five years ago, the Fort Meade FD had Command (and had the classified pre-plans), and both FMFD and mutual aid units form Odenton, AA County and Montgomery County had to do the non-disclosure de-briefing afterward.
Greenman
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The SCIF building fire is another case of apples and oranges, since the Ft. Meade FD is first due and has the legal responsibility.
My point is that no local authority has the responsibility - legally or otherwise - to risk their personnel in a classified federal facility without some type of pre-existing contract or other legal agreement.
Then there are the situations that can be anticipated in the scenario you discuss.
1) What happens if you force your personnel to fight a fire in the federal facility without a contract and some of your personnel refuse to sign the non-disclosure agreement?
2) What happens if you force your personnel to fight a fire in the federal facility without a contract/agreement and your personnel are injured? Who is legally responsible for their medical care and follow-up - especially when the facility might contain hazards other than classified pieces of paper?
3) What happens if - God forbid - you have a LODD while fighting the fire in the federal facility, and something the feds had going on is responsible for the firefighter death? Who is responsible? How do you prove that something the feds had going on was responsible if they refuse to admit it? How does your local department/town/city management feel about taking this kind of responsibility for the feds?
Just because the feds assume that the locals will respond - and maybe even if the locals do just that - does NOT make it a local responsibility without a signed agreement/contract or some type of law that makes it the local FD responsibility and gives the local fire chief the right to be in Command of the fire, make any necessary decisions, and to protect his/her firefighters as he/she deems in their best interests.
In other words, just because some fire departments do it doesn't make it right, or even a good practice.
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Since none of the situations involve self dispatching of fire companies and only the fire communication center has control of dispatching then no stations will respond. Since most stations don't have access to what is on file at the office of the chief or at communications then communications supervisors only have that and will advisor for dispatch of the local station or stations to the facility if the facility calls for need of local fire service.
I would think the government facility would talk to the top command of the fire service and not the rookie firefighter sitting in the fire station involving their facility to have all the agreements about what will be done when the local fire service is sent there.
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