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But The 2-1/2 Is Soooooo Hard to Move...
The average complaint about the big line is that it takes a lot to advance it.
The 2 1/2-inch hoseline is plagued by myths that cause our reluctance to use it, even at times when it is needed most. The most common are that it is too heavy to advance aggressively and that it requires more manpower than that used to advance a 1 3/4- or 1 1/2-inch handline.
It is correct that the big line will not be as quickly stretched and advanced as its smaller brothers, but if you stop for a moment and consider the type of fires and settings that the 2 1/2-inch hoseline faces, then you can begin to understand that speed is not so much a requirement. Take a look at the mnemonic you should be using for deciding when to pull the big line:
ADULTS
A = Advanced Fire
D = Defensive Operations
U = Unknown Location (of the fire; smoke pushing from every crack but we can't locate the seat)
L = Large Structures
T = Tons of Water
S - Standpipe System
Looking at these we don't see any that really require the immediate speed in stretch and advance that the smaller lines do. We are going to be quick as we can when pulling the 2 1/2-inch hoseline, but our mindset should be different. When you respond to a private dwelling fire, your hippocampus (part of the brain that deals with short- and long-term memory) is already engaged in recalling past experiences to match with the yet unseen, as you arrive. Experience combined with education teaches you that successful extinguishment of the fire will be the result of a fast stretch and knockdown. Once the parking brake is set you act almost without thinking.
But look where and how ADULTS is used.
When you respond to the Home Depot for a working fire, or the whatever-teenth floor of a high-rise, your immediate thoughts shouldn't be the quick stretch but whether or not you are bringing the right gun to the fight. It may be a fire in a rear storage room, or a kitchen fire on the 27th floor; either one, you are not going to be as quick as if you are running the 150' preconnect. You will be walking stairs, looking for the straightest path, extending a line or still looking for the fire. Combine this with the fact that the fire is growing and you should see the need for the 2 1/2.
"But I don't have the initial staffing to run the 2 1/2."
I disagree. I've been on fires where three-men engine companies have run the big line successfully and managed to make a good knockdown as other companies arrived. The reason for their success is that they trained on the 2 1/2-inch hoseline with their 'real world' staffing. It's easy for a department to say they drill on using the big line, but that is usually a whole department drill where they put six members on the line. Real world training uses real world staffing. Education should be open to all, but to stress the fact that minimum staffing can run the big line, the drill must be done with same minimum staffing.
The Nozzle Forward has two good videos showing the proper teamwork and movement among the lineman and backup man, using the 2 1/2-inch hoseline. Take a look at them, share them with others in your department and drill on stretching and advancing the 2 1/2 with real world staffing. Rotate members, three or four at a time, in simple evolutions and then repeat to gain speed in movements.
ADULTS anyone?
Hotel under construction. (Brian Slattery photo)
Commercial row with apartments above (David Coleman photo)
Private dwelling. (author's collection)
Photos courtesy of author and FITHP.net with permission.
Bill Carey is the Online News/Blog Manager for Elsevier Public Safety and a former Prince George's County (MD) volunteer fire officer.
Read more of Backstep Firefighter and others at FireEMSBlogs.com.
The 2 1/2-inch hoseline is plagued by myths that cause our reluctance to use it, even at times when it is needed most. The most common are that it is too heavy to advance aggressively and that it requires more manpower than that used to advance a 1 3/4- or 1 1/2-inch handline.
It is correct that the big line will not be as quickly stretched and advanced as its smaller brothers, but if you stop for a moment and consider the type of fires and settings that the 2 1/2-inch hoseline faces, then you can begin to understand that speed is not so much a requirement. Take a look at the mnemonic you should be using for deciding when to pull the big line:
ADULTS
A = Advanced Fire
D = Defensive Operations
U = Unknown Location (of the fire; smoke pushing from every crack but we can't locate the seat)
L = Large Structures
T = Tons of Water
S - Standpipe System
Looking at these we don't see any that really require the immediate speed in stretch and advance that the smaller lines do. We are going to be quick as we can when pulling the 2 1/2-inch hoseline, but our mindset should be different. When you respond to a private dwelling fire, your hippocampus (part of the brain that deals with short- and long-term memory) is already engaged in recalling past experiences to match with the yet unseen, as you arrive. Experience combined with education teaches you that successful extinguishment of the fire will be the result of a fast stretch and knockdown. Once the parking brake is set you act almost without thinking.
But look where and how ADULTS is used.
When you respond to the Home Depot for a working fire, or the whatever-teenth floor of a high-rise, your immediate thoughts shouldn't be the quick stretch but whether or not you are bringing the right gun to the fight. It may be a fire in a rear storage room, or a kitchen fire on the 27th floor; either one, you are not going to be as quick as if you are running the 150' preconnect. You will be walking stairs, looking for the straightest path, extending a line or still looking for the fire. Combine this with the fact that the fire is growing and you should see the need for the 2 1/2.
"But I don't have the initial staffing to run the 2 1/2."
I disagree. I've been on fires where three-men engine companies have run the big line successfully and managed to make a good knockdown as other companies arrived. The reason for their success is that they trained on the 2 1/2-inch hoseline with their 'real world' staffing. It's easy for a department to say they drill on using the big line, but that is usually a whole department drill where they put six members on the line. Real world training uses real world staffing. Education should be open to all, but to stress the fact that minimum staffing can run the big line, the drill must be done with same minimum staffing.
The Nozzle Forward has two good videos showing the proper teamwork and movement among the lineman and backup man, using the 2 1/2-inch hoseline. Take a look at them, share them with others in your department and drill on stretching and advancing the 2 1/2 with real world staffing. Rotate members, three or four at a time, in simple evolutions and then repeat to gain speed in movements.
ADULTS anyone?
Hotel under construction. (Brian Slattery photo)
Commercial row with apartments above (David Coleman photo)
Private dwelling. (author's collection)
Photos courtesy of author and FITHP.net with permission.
Bill Carey is the Online News/Blog Manager for Elsevier Public Safety and a former Prince George's County (MD) volunteer fire officer.
Read more of Backstep Firefighter and others at FireEMSBlogs.com.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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The nozzle we use is a break a part. It is an Elkhart B275GAT pistol grip shut off with a 1 3/8 inch waterway and a 1 1/4 inch slug tip that we flow at around 45 psi for 300 gpm. The combination tip is an Elkhart 4000-24 rated at 200 gpm at 75 psi.
I will need to stop by the FD tomorrow and look at the pump panel to get you the discharge pressures. Sorry, I do not have them memorized. We did use a calibrated flow meter we checked with a pitot gauge to make sure it was accurate.
We have found that we flow more through our 2 inch lines than most FDs flow through 2 1/2 inch lines. Most are using either 1 inch (210 gpm) or 1 1/8 inch (265 gpm) tips, or 250 gpm combination nozzles. We on the other hand flow 300 out to 300 feet with our 2 inch lines.
We don't carry any 2 1/2 inch hose at all. All of our handlines are 2 inch. For anything over 300 feet we extend lines with 3 inch hose. We frankly don;t see the need for 2 1/2 when the 2 inch does the same job and is lighter and faster to deploy.
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My POC FD uses 2 inch hose and we normally move it with 2 or 3 firefighters. We flow either 160 or 200 gpm with the combo tip or 300 gpm with the slug. I believe we would have knocked that fire down much quicker with the heavier hit of the 2 inch line.
The simple fact is this, it takes GPMs to put out a fire and fire will go out faster if a higher flow is used. We prefer to use the 2 inch line that is as easily maneuvered as a 1 3/4 inch line and is capable of the flows of a 2 1/2.
I am NOT telling you you are wrong. How you fight fire has absolutely zero effect on me and my FD. We just pefer a line that can be moved relatively easily with a minimum crew and has a heavier flow.
Stay safe.
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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2" cannot be moved as easily as 1 1/2" though. Yea, you get more gpm but if you attack the fire early, you don't need more water. We still have fires in our city every single day for the most part and this method always works fine. Like I showed in the video above, even a house well off was easily put out with 1 1/2" lines.
Another reason small lines work for us is because it's DC. We have fire houses within blocks of each other. There isn't going to be a long response time which means there usually isn't going to be a big fire.
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In the video you posted you used 3 guys to move a 1 1/2 inch line. Assuming you had a 125 gpm nozzle on it that is less than 42 GPMs a guy. We use 2 most often and 3 when we have them to move our 2 inch line. All things being equal in staffing, let's say we have 3 on our 2 inch line, we can flow between 53 and 100 GPM per guy. Obviously a far moe efficient use of manpower with a MUCH greate capability. You have to put almost 3 lines in sevice to flow what we can at max with one line.
We move the 2 inch line just fine here. In fact when we first were experimenting with it the firefighters picked it over the 1 3/4 inch line so many times that the Chief said that's good enough for me and we switched over entirely to 2 inch attack lines.
I don't mean to sound hyper critical, and obviously I wasn't there, but I believe that fire burned far longer than it needed to given the manpower you had on scene. Multiple lines or a bigger heavier hitting line would have killed that fire much faster than having to work your asses off to gain control with a 1 1/2 inch line.
Um, using that you are DC as a reason for something is really kind of egotistical. Would you say that to an FDNY guy and try to tell him there use of 1 3/4 inch lines with a 15/16 smooth bore was wrong?
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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I don't mean to sound hyper critical, and obviously I wasn't there, but I believe that fire burned far longer than it needed to given the manpower you had on scene. Multiple lines or a bigger heavier hitting line would have killed that fire much faster than having to work your asses off to gain control with a 1 1/2 inch line.
I agree on the basis that what a dept does is up to them and I don't really care too much how one place does it vs another. Quite simply this is why we have an academy, to teach "our" way.
However, watching the video I also agree with Don here. I noticed many FF's on the line too and really saw one line for sure. Yeah, the fire went out and yes, there are probably many who would roll on such a scene and think defensive right away, vs even putting guys on the porch.
What sticks out is the statement at the end of the clip, showing the "saved" portion of the house and what can be construed as gloating. Yes, it was an offensive attack, but the video does show crews working from burned to non. I can say there wasn't a crew going to the back and attacking unburned to burned, but we do see a fire attack from the porch and spraying water in, that is quite clear.
Now, not being hyper critical either, but I think the video can also serve as size up and tactics training. Personally, I would look at hitting the front with a stinger (deck gun) and darken a good majority down and then committ crews for an offensive attack. If the debate is going to be about 2" hose and personnel to handle it and 1 1/2" hose and tactics, may as well throw out this option as well. Darken the fire down with a stinger, and the rest should be no problem to get at no matter what size handline you choose.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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I tried to stay away from these forums for this very reason. My reasoning for entering discussions is usally related to my twisted idea that I can actually add some value to the discussion. Regardless of the size of the department, and regardless of response time the amount of fire involvement and what is involved is contained and controlled by one factor: Flow rate. You can arrive within one minute or ten minutes with 18 firefighters or 4 firefighters...a fully-involved second floor with extension to the third in a 3.5 story multi-family frame dwelling requires a larger application rate than does a two room job. That's one constant regardless of where you work. How you apply that may differ from one department to the next.
No matter how "aggressive" you are water vs. fire pretty much remains the same. Does it make more sense to engage in an all-out beating, a mutual assualt between fire and firefighter? Constantly battling from room to room and taking a beating with a bb gun versus a few shots with the bazooka?
Personally speaking, we are not "waiting" for anyone to respond, and our response time is as good as it gets. This thread has been abandonded by the creator. Most likely he threw his hands up in the air, and just proved his point. And he is certainly not working in a small department with long response times either. He had a point to make, and he made it. I have seen recklessness and insanity being mistaken for aggressiveness plenty of times. Thankfully it isn't the norm in this business.
Attacking the fire "early" is ideal, no doubt about it. However just about every day we can find news of fire that for whatever reason was not, and could not be attacked early. A delay in reporting, a delay in discovery, a location discrepency...whatever. It is a little bit of a stretch to beleive that every fire is going to be discovered and attacked "early". I would imagine that be the case in most communities.
The thread began as a discussion on the perception of a wide-spread abandodnment of the 2.5" hand-line, and suggested the possible reasons for it. It further states that with the proper training, this tool can be found to be an effective weapon in situations where the over-dependence on smaller lines could be detremental. I continue to agree with the author of this thread, and I also agree there are alternative ways to deliver larger flow handlines. I fought a fire once, too.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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I'm late to the dance on this one but, in my department we pull the 2 1/2 for commercial properties and for what we call our 'back yard' line. It's 300ft so there is little friction loss on a long run and I believe it's around 50psi at the tip, straight bore nozzle. Easy to hold, bit more work to advance.
Our attack lines are 2". Typically they're run at around 125 psi, easy enough for two people to advance and handle. We use adjustable breakaway nozzles which can be run at around 50 psi and put out about 275 gpm (I believe). It's the only thing I've ever used. Our 1 3/4 is our trash line for car and dumpster fires.
We're stuck on the adjustable nozzle however. I'd rather run a straight bore with lower tip reaction force, greater penetration and more gpm's. Since we do have the option of taking off the adjustable nozzle I think it's a fair trade off. But the 2 1/2 does have a place in our department and does get pulled when called for. It is heavier than the 2 but then, we're used to pulling the deuce so it's not that big a deal. We have preconnect 3" to a stinger for defensive ops. It's what works for us. There have been a number of very quick knockdowns with the fist engine in, advancing the deuce and putting out the fire. Again, it's what we're used to working with.
As for capcityff, given their rather quick response times, if the guys are used to the 1 3/4 and they can knock down the fire, it's what works for them. I can appreciate their tactics, even if we don't use the same ones here.
I'm in agreement with Jeff above in his earlier comments about the advantages of a deuce over a deuce and a half, you can flow as much water from a 2 as you can a 2 1/2. To me the only advantage of a 2 1/2 is less friction loss on a long run, e.g. our backyard line.
There may be no good reason for a big, inner city department to pull a 2 or 2 1/2 line if they're on scene quickly, well trained and experienced. On the other hand, a 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 line for a very rural volly department with considerably longer response times means their on scene of a well advanced working fire. A larger line makes more since but again, it's up the departments for what works for them.
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Let me say this, I am not opposed to using a 2 1/2 inch line for fire attack. My career FD has both pre-connected 2 1/2 inch lines with 250 at 75 psi combo nozzles with a 1 1/8 inch slug tip, and a 500 foot dead lay bed of 2 1/2 with a stacked tip smooth bore.
If anything I would agree that in many FDs the line is not practiced with, and because we use the smaller lines so often, it is rarely thought of for initial fire attack.
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Permalink Reply by Bill Carey on
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"This thread has been abandonded by the creator. Most likely he threw his hands up in the air, and just proved his point. And he is certainly not working in a small department with long response times either. He had a point to make, and he made it."
I haven't abandoned the thread, rather I've seen how the majority of forum threads go and am actually surprised this one has done as well as it has. The credit for that goes to everyone who has posted on topic in a civil manner.
In the little bit of spare time I try to offer what I believe are constructive thought provoking threads that can carry on a discussion. Many complain about the lack of substantial topics yet hardly offer anything of substance themselves.
The biggest thing to remember is what works for you works for you - especially if have tested other options. I posted this because I see many initial attacks made with small lines, when a larger line would have made more of a impact. I also posted it because I hear many excuses about not using the 2 1/2-inch lines. It's not a post about urban advantages, aggressive firefighting, or 'my department's better than yours.' It's about what each of you have added to it:
Sizeup
Training
Hose Sizes
Nozzles
Flow Rates
Staffing
If you can agree to disagree, so be it. Nothing wrong with that either. I fully understand department attitudes, especially in my area. I also understand through my own experience, what it is like to have to wait many, many minutes for the second engine/tanker. What I hope in this post, and others before and after it, is that it gets at least one person thinking "What if..."
Carry on.
Bill carey
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Bill,
Exactly, it is about what you and your department have tested, experimented with, used in actual service, and have determined is best for you.
Recently we had a 40 x 60 pole barn fire. It was roughly 50% involved upon arival due to delayed discovey of the fire. Within a very few minutes we had 3 - 2 inch lines flowing and were hitting the fire with 800 gallons per minute. one line had 2 FFs on it and two lines had 3 on it. Much heavier of a hit than we could have pulled off with 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 inch lines and a quicker more mobile line than a 2 1/2.
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There was this blog- http://my.firefighternation.com/profiles/blogs/factoring-weightperf... and an earlier discussion http://my.firefighternation.com/forum/topics/the-big-line?commentId...
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Actually being in DC has a big thing to do with it. If you read the whole response I said that because of the distance of the fire houses. When you have that many response times are quicker because they don't go as far. Therefore water gets put on the fire faster resulting in less large fires. How is that in anyway egotistical?
And where did I call you wrong? I told you what we do and I brought up where I am to point out why that works for us. If I was in a smaller city then yes, a bigger line might be more useful. I don't care what FDNY does. We actually run several different training programs together with the FDNY even with our differences.
The one part that I did say you were wrong was about the 2" being as easy to move. That's common sense that it's not. The video was there to show how much a 1 1/2" can handle.
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