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But The 2-1/2 Is Soooooo Hard to Move...
The average complaint about the big line is that it takes a lot to advance it.
The 2 1/2-inch hoseline is plagued by myths that cause our reluctance to use it, even at times when it is needed most. The most common are that it is too heavy to advance aggressively and that it requires more manpower than that used to advance a 1 3/4- or 1 1/2-inch handline.
It is correct that the big line will not be as quickly stretched and advanced as its smaller brothers, but if you stop for a moment and consider the type of fires and settings that the 2 1/2-inch hoseline faces, then you can begin to understand that speed is not so much a requirement. Take a look at the mnemonic you should be using for deciding when to pull the big line:
ADULTS
A = Advanced Fire
D = Defensive Operations
U = Unknown Location (of the fire; smoke pushing from every crack but we can't locate the seat)
L = Large Structures
T = Tons of Water
S - Standpipe System
Looking at these we don't see any that really require the immediate speed in stretch and advance that the smaller lines do. We are going to be quick as we can when pulling the 2 1/2-inch hoseline, but our mindset should be different. When you respond to a private dwelling fire, your hippocampus (part of the brain that deals with short- and long-term memory) is already engaged in recalling past experiences to match with the yet unseen, as you arrive. Experience combined with education teaches you that successful extinguishment of the fire will be the result of a fast stretch and knockdown. Once the parking brake is set you act almost without thinking.
But look where and how ADULTS is used.
When you respond to the Home Depot for a working fire, or the whatever-teenth floor of a high-rise, your immediate thoughts shouldn't be the quick stretch but whether or not you are bringing the right gun to the fight. It may be a fire in a rear storage room, or a kitchen fire on the 27th floor; either one, you are not going to be as quick as if you are running the 150' preconnect. You will be walking stairs, looking for the straightest path, extending a line or still looking for the fire. Combine this with the fact that the fire is growing and you should see the need for the 2 1/2.
"But I don't have the initial staffing to run the 2 1/2."
I disagree. I've been on fires where three-men engine companies have run the big line successfully and managed to make a good knockdown as other companies arrived. The reason for their success is that they trained on the 2 1/2-inch hoseline with their 'real world' staffing. It's easy for a department to say they drill on using the big line, but that is usually a whole department drill where they put six members on the line. Real world training uses real world staffing. Education should be open to all, but to stress the fact that minimum staffing can run the big line, the drill must be done with same minimum staffing.
The Nozzle Forward has two good videos showing the proper teamwork and movement among the lineman and backup man, using the 2 1/2-inch hoseline. Take a look at them, share them with others in your department and drill on stretching and advancing the 2 1/2 with real world staffing. Rotate members, three or four at a time, in simple evolutions and then repeat to gain speed in movements.
ADULTS anyone?
Hotel under construction. (Brian Slattery photo)
Commercial row with apartments above (David Coleman photo)
Private dwelling. (author's collection)
Photos courtesy of author and FITHP.net with permission.
Bill Carey is the Online News/Blog Manager for Elsevier Public Safety and a former Prince George's County (MD) volunteer fire officer.
Read more of Backstep Firefighter and others at FireEMSBlogs.com.
The 2 1/2-inch hoseline is plagued by myths that cause our reluctance to use it, even at times when it is needed most. The most common are that it is too heavy to advance aggressively and that it requires more manpower than that used to advance a 1 3/4- or 1 1/2-inch handline.
It is correct that the big line will not be as quickly stretched and advanced as its smaller brothers, but if you stop for a moment and consider the type of fires and settings that the 2 1/2-inch hoseline faces, then you can begin to understand that speed is not so much a requirement. Take a look at the mnemonic you should be using for deciding when to pull the big line:
ADULTS
A = Advanced Fire
D = Defensive Operations
U = Unknown Location (of the fire; smoke pushing from every crack but we can't locate the seat)
L = Large Structures
T = Tons of Water
S - Standpipe System
Looking at these we don't see any that really require the immediate speed in stretch and advance that the smaller lines do. We are going to be quick as we can when pulling the 2 1/2-inch hoseline, but our mindset should be different. When you respond to a private dwelling fire, your hippocampus (part of the brain that deals with short- and long-term memory) is already engaged in recalling past experiences to match with the yet unseen, as you arrive. Experience combined with education teaches you that successful extinguishment of the fire will be the result of a fast stretch and knockdown. Once the parking brake is set you act almost without thinking.
But look where and how ADULTS is used.
When you respond to the Home Depot for a working fire, or the whatever-teenth floor of a high-rise, your immediate thoughts shouldn't be the quick stretch but whether or not you are bringing the right gun to the fight. It may be a fire in a rear storage room, or a kitchen fire on the 27th floor; either one, you are not going to be as quick as if you are running the 150' preconnect. You will be walking stairs, looking for the straightest path, extending a line or still looking for the fire. Combine this with the fact that the fire is growing and you should see the need for the 2 1/2.
"But I don't have the initial staffing to run the 2 1/2."
I disagree. I've been on fires where three-men engine companies have run the big line successfully and managed to make a good knockdown as other companies arrived. The reason for their success is that they trained on the 2 1/2-inch hoseline with their 'real world' staffing. It's easy for a department to say they drill on using the big line, but that is usually a whole department drill where they put six members on the line. Real world training uses real world staffing. Education should be open to all, but to stress the fact that minimum staffing can run the big line, the drill must be done with same minimum staffing.
The Nozzle Forward has two good videos showing the proper teamwork and movement among the lineman and backup man, using the 2 1/2-inch hoseline. Take a look at them, share them with others in your department and drill on stretching and advancing the 2 1/2 with real world staffing. Rotate members, three or four at a time, in simple evolutions and then repeat to gain speed in movements.
ADULTS anyone?
Hotel under construction. (Brian Slattery photo)
Commercial row with apartments above (David Coleman photo)
Private dwelling. (author's collection)
Photos courtesy of author and FITHP.net with permission.
Bill Carey is the Online News/Blog Manager for Elsevier Public Safety and a former Prince George's County (MD) volunteer fire officer.
Read more of Backstep Firefighter and others at FireEMSBlogs.com.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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Read my response above. Why is it that if you guys say what you do in your department it's okay, but I point out why we do it our way and I'm wrong?
MOST of our fires ARE attacked early and we can afford to be a little more aggressive. This is why I mentioned I'm in a large city. When you have adequate staffing and fire houses within blocks of each other is allows for this to happen very easily. Did I say you were wrong in the way you did it? No. I stated how we do it and why it works. Once again, being in a large city allows this. If we had to wait for guy to drive into the house for the call, then respond 15 minutes out, of course the fire would be bigger. However we don't worry about that because it's not an issue here.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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capcityff,
Who are you addressing? I think you know I don't have any issues with how you guys operate. Totally different environment than here.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Why is it that if you guys say what you do in your department it's okay, but I point out why we do it our way and I'm wrong?
Don't take it personally, you're not wrong, others are not right, just differences involved. 1 1/2" works for you guys and that is what you use, others find a bigger line works for them. We use what works for us. Yep, you do have the staffing and the proximity of firehouses and have quite the diverse population and hazards...but you are still a bunch of FEMS :-) (sorry couldn't resist)
I think you make the point clear that this is what works for you, but it can be perception on how one takes a reply. Like I mentioned about the video clip, the statement at the end can be construed as gloating by those who may have made a different size up and approach. Another problem with a video or picture is that it only shows what the camera operator wanted you to see.....we didn't get a 360 which could have influenced the decision. Same thing as for staffing and response, things differ, so it could be understandable where one would take the statement at the end as offensive, cocky, what have you.
That is also why I mentioned about using the deck gun to hit the fire while hoses are being advanced etc, just another tactic, vs discussing the amount of fire and the size line it took to control the fire.
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Sorry Jack and John. Wasn't addressing either of you. It was the couple that kept complaining that I said they were wrong when I never did. I've had plenty of debates with both of you and obviously never had a problem.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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That would be a logical response IF the video was DC and not Kentland. And YES, I know all about Kentland and how it is staffed with guys from DC, and the FDNY, and lots of other career FDs.
I never said you were wrong in doing what you do. Hell, if you want to use a video of Kentland and then defend the tactics because that is how you do it in DC it's no skin off my nose.
What I said was, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION that the fire burned longer than it would have IF you had used either a bigger line, or multiple lines. Heck if you prefer to handle a 1 1/2 inch line with 3 guys, more power to you. I guarantee you we could have gone everywhere you did there with our 2 inch line with 3 guys on the line, flowing far more water.
And just like you about me, I couldn't care less how you do what you do. But to infer that a 1 1/2 inch line, deployed quickly can eliminate the need for a large flow line is simply not true. If the fire is bigger than your 125 gpm can extinguish I don't care how much you work the line it will continue to burn until the fire burns down enough to become a 1 1/2 inch flow fire.
Stay safe.
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Permalink Reply by Barry Greer on
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Way back when we used the 2 1/2 as an attack line and trained to always get it laid straight behind the nozzle for advancing or to loop the line on itself, then sit on it for a stationary position. And we carried plenty of hose straps. Don't see any in use in these videos, but they made it a lot easier to hang onto the line for the backup people than just grabbing it with a glove.
Need to add that we once used a 2 1/2 for initial attack on a second alarm up an external fire escape, but it took four of us to wrestle it up to the second floor landing and to hold it into position. Deputy chief showed up and yelled at us to get off the fire escape, which meant we had to shut down the line. On the ground, we took up a defensive position with the 2 1/2 looped so one man could sit on it as the video indicates, hold the nozzle up, and use it as a stationary heavy stream appliance.
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I stopped by the FD today and these are the pump discharge pressures and flows for our preconnects on our 2005 HME pumper. Your results may vary due to plumbing differences.
200 foot front bumper crosslays:
The first 2 are from the combination tip that is rated at 200 gpm at 75 psi.
160 gpm: 75 psi EP
200 gpm: 125 psi EP
This flow is from a 1 1/4 inch slug tip smoothbore
300 gpm: 150 psi EP
300 foot over the pump crosslays:
160 gpm: 95 psi EP
200 gpm: 145 psi EP
300 gpm: 190 psi EP
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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Bill I had totally forgotten YOU began this thread! I thought it was started by a friend of mine from "Brotherhood Instructors". OOPS!
You may remember I used to frequent another website that rhymes with "fakes" and always tried to fuel the fires of operational differences. I stand by the simple, yet proven fact that gpm rate vs burning stuff equals containment, control, and extinguishment success. That's about it.
There be some "big" active departments that use the big line constantly, and some that don't. The 1.5" aint around that much. Why WAS the 1.75" hose line created? Back in the 'early days" (I was around then) it was either the inch and a half or the two and a half...or the booster. Those of us who have been around for 30+ should remember the push for the 1.75". And now we begin to see the 2" start to become popular.
I don't know of anyone who uses the booster for inital interior attack (one such tragic incident does come to mind) becouse it's obviously an under-powered weapon against todays rapid fire spread and heat production. But for those who may still be pulling the reel line...are they doing it "wrong". Is it ok if it's a quick jump, quick hit on the fire, regardless of what's burning?
It's all subjected to opinions. But the 2.5" is soooooooo hard to move!
I'm just having fun here is all. Stress releif. Anyone still use the Bresnan Distributor, the Jet Axe...the Navy Fog Applicators???
The only thing "wrong" is when people get hurt or killed due to action or inaction based on lack of education and training. Lack of equipment, for better or worse, is usually a problem created by adminsitrations. Refusing to accept common sense procedures born from lessons learned from repeated mistakes and poor judgement is inexcusable.
Other than that, how the job get's done is the concern of the local department's heirarchy and the customers. I got no beef with anyone. Please don't take it that way.
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Permalink Reply by matia brutus soqosoqo on
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u r walking into hell.get a big gun coz the devil aint gonna have mercy on u...in a third world country like us we r always short of 1 1/2" so we always train with 2 1/2" using a 4 man.ie 1 hydrant man,1 pump operator,1 branchman n 1 to assist him.there u go.2 guys to run out a 2 1/2" line but thats just us.what do i know about fires in a 1st world country
.happy hunting evry1...
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First, the video isn't Kentland. It's Seat Pleasant and Boulevard Heights.(Two other companies in PG County which is my volunteer department)
Second, I'm not sure why that matters that it's not DC.
Yes, you get more water with a 2" but my point on why we like the 1 1/2" is because it can be moved quicker. You can cover the area fast which sometimes is better.
I know there's three guys on it. There are just as many people on the line as your 2" but that just speeds things up. We don't NEED 3 guys but we have the staffing so why not?
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The video clearly shows a white rig with the company identifier of 33. If that is PG County that is Kentland. If you are not a part of Kentland I apologize for making that assumption, but they are prominent in the video.
It only matters because you used a video of YOUR volunteer company, and then justified the choice of tactics saying this is how you do it in DC, and that it works because your stations are so close together. Tell me how that is at all relevant to the video when it is a video of your volunteer company and not DCFEMS?
And I guess what I am saying about moving OUR 2 inch lines is we train moving that, and since it is our ONLY handline size, we move it very well. Frankly, I disagree that with 3 people on it we can't move it as quickly as you move your 1 1/2 inch line. But just for the sake of debate let me say this, perhaps we don't need to because we can hit the fire harder, faster, because of the higher flow capability of our line. We start at 160 gpm, the officer can change that to 200 gpm, all with the low pressure combo tip. And if it gets really nasty he can toss the combo tip and go to the 1 1/4 slug and flow 300. All with out changing the line or needing more manpower to pull that second, bigger line.
I do need to ask this question, and please don't take it confrontationally, how much actual experience do you have using 2 inch hose? I mean moving it in a building and actually attacking fire with it? I have been around for 34 years and I have used 1 inch booster lines, 1 1/2, 1 3/4, 2, 2 1/2 and even crazier at one point 3 inch handlines. Thankfully I never had to pull the 3 inch inside a structure, that was a surround and drown line. To me the 2 inch line is the perfect compromise between mobility and flow. I can't tell you the last time I heard one of our POC FFs complain about the 2 inch hose, either the weight or flow.
We generally have the staffing to allow us 3 people on the line. We train in using the line in different ways, with 3 we can obviously afford to be much more aggressive because the line moves faster and easier. With 2 firefighters with the higher flows we sometimes do the pin and hit technoque. But even with 2 FFs on the line we can move the line pretty well flowing 160 gpm.
Like I said before, I don't care what you do, or how you do it, but the presumption by you that we can't do what I say we do with our 2 inch line is rather insulting. You want people to approve of what you do while repeatedly telling me that what I say we do isn't possible.
Stay safe.
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Permalink Reply by benn rayawa on
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prefer 2 1/2 over 1 1/2 any day but it really depends on water supply
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