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When Do You Run Out Of Resources?
I was reading about the large amount of fires in Detriot recently and how some incidents had to wait 90 minutes for an engine. I don't but maybe I'm spoiled living in an area with 5 stations within 5 mins and 20 within 15 and 100 within 30 minutes.
As I look at a map of the Detroit metro area its hard to beleive that other cities or towns would not have responded into the city. I also read that this is the first time in 40 yrs Mutual Aid was requested. Hasn't 9-11 taught us anything. Chicago had a huge drill recently to verify communications and get EVERYONE on the same page.
We as emergency responders have a responsibilty to make sure we can keep our citizens safe. Case in point - Conshocken has a HUGEMONGUS fire couple of years ago. Several Del and NJ companies responded for cover ups. Easily a 45 min ride. I really don't se anyone saying "I don't want to travel miles to fight a fire or go to a new fire house" We get a larger response when we go to PA or NJ then to neighboring companies.
But back to the topic. There should never be a fire when no one responds. I might be wrong for pointing the finger at Detroit. I'm sure thier a bunch of great fireifghters and officers. But we need to learn from thier mistake. No one department can handle everything in thier district....NONE. NYC showed it, LA shows it and now detroit showed it. There is no embarassment in calling for help. If I could call for an additinal engine while cutting grass I would. Not calling for sufficent help and burning down a house. buiilding or half the city is embarassing.
But we need to be prepared. What happens after you use up your run card. Is it in the dispatchers hands? Where do you go after ALL the departments in your area have been called. How will you communicate?
So I guess I answered my own question...NEVER, As long as there is a firehouse with equipment and members somewhere in the country you will never run out of resources. Call them, use them.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Sorry if I misunderstood. Since the discussion was about the Detroit fires on Sep. 7 and the response, It appeared that you were talking about that topic.
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Permalink Reply by Reg Mathis on
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You only run out of resources when you stop thinking...
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Permalink Reply by Jason on
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All I can tell you, if I need them, then I'm going to call and calling thme early. So if it get's bad around here...I might be calling for some of you. I'll call coast to coast if I need it.
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Permalink Reply by Just Plain Craig Moyer on
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I understand Taxes and the fire department needing to prove that moe resources are needed but out number one job is to provide protection to our citizens. I find it hard to beleive that in Michigan there weren't enough fire companies to assist. As soon as they know they were over thier head they should be calling TASKFORCES, if they were set up and if they weren't they should be. Look at Chicago. I'm sure they have the same situations many cities are having. But they are prepared for 85 fires. they have many task force set up and ready to go. The dispatcher just needs to pull a book to know which ones are needed. I can understand a vollie company (I'm a vollie myself) but a paid department were people went to college for these things to not be preapred is another matter all together.
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Permalink Reply by Gregory Borg on
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Some volunteer departments will not call paid departments for help. some paid departments will not let volunteer companies into their cities. This is America where we have the right to be fucked up.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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This is America where we have the right to be fucked up.
Aint that the truth!!!
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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Unfortunately it can happen here too... When people try to operate bypassing the CAD. Despite the way our systems are built! Tends to be the old timers (both career & vol). When it happens it can and does get squashed.
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Permalink Reply by Andrew Salinger on
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i can say that while we havent run out of resources as such we have been stretched mighty thin before, trucks traveling 3 and 4 hours to assist only to have large fires break out in their own areas.
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Permalink Reply by Trainer on
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Craig, it's not only Chicago but the entire state, we just chose that venue to show what can be done. You want MA, call Illinois we will come, proved that with Katrina.
We are instructed to take our box cards to the 5th level, after that it's a call to red center which is dispatch for the entire state, and strike teams and task forces abound, always call more then you need but we never clean out any one house.
Let me try to give you a glimpse into the best MA in the country; the state is broke into 67 divisions, 98% of dept's belong and when 1 dept has a box alarm call the entire division is put on alert, we can also expand to inter divisional or state wide, our goal is to have everything you need within 1 hour. We also have at our disposal, state of the art equipped, 60 hazmat ,40 technical rescue, 5 dive, 11 IMAT teams.
The Chicago drill was 90 departments, from 4 states, over 900 FF's checked in, credentialed and ready to go at 3 staging locations in under 90 min downtown without lights and sirens. You'll see more on this in the months to come.
We have ego issues like everyone else, one of the reasons MABAS was formed originally but were making state wide MA work, small or large scale.
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Craig, it takes MONEY to form Task Forces. Chicago is in much better financial shape than is Detroit, and the Chicago suburbs are in better financial shape than are Detroit's suburbs.
If you don't have the money to even staff for day-to-day responses, how in the world are you going to be able to fund task forces.
Then there's the issue of downsizing a city department and expecting mutual aid to take up the slack on a repetitive, day-to-day basis. That's when the taxpayers in the suburbs - rightly - will start screaming to disband the mutual aid agreement when their fire department is spending all its time in Detroit.
Lawrence, MA is experencing this problem right now.
Only about 2/3 of Detroit's housing is occupied. The rest is vacant housing or empty lots. That's a lot of former tax base that is now gone.
By comparison, 92% of Chicago housing is occupied. Chicago is a thriving city. Detroit is a dying city. Any comparison of their firefighting capability is simply apples-to-oranges. You can't expect the two to have the same system or the same results - Detroit simply can't afford it.
Most importantly, Craig, almost all of the houses that Detroit lost on Sept. 7 were no-value abandoned houses. With Detroit formally considering downsizing in order to save their city, the loss of that no-value housing is meaningless. They are talking about DEMOLISHING up to 1/4 of their housing, moving the few remaining occupants to other parts of the city, and letting those parts of their city go back to semi-rural, unimproved land.
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Craig,
More on Detroit - here is a Google Earth photo taken of a neighborhood immediately across I-75 from downtown Detroit and Comerica Park. (The Tigers new stadium)
Note the vacant lots, the apartment building devoid of vehicles, the lack of vehicles on a major street like Woodward Ave., and an empty house foundation. Pan around the map, and you'll see miles and miles of the same.
My hat is off to the Detroit firefighters and paramedics who do such a great job with so few resources.
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