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When Do You Run Out Of Resources?
I was reading about the large amount of fires in Detriot recently and how some incidents had to wait 90 minutes for an engine. I don't but maybe I'm spoiled living in an area with 5 stations within 5 mins and 20 within 15 and 100 within 30 minutes.
As I look at a map of the Detroit metro area its hard to beleive that other cities or towns would not have responded into the city. I also read that this is the first time in 40 yrs Mutual Aid was requested. Hasn't 9-11 taught us anything. Chicago had a huge drill recently to verify communications and get EVERYONE on the same page.
We as emergency responders have a responsibilty to make sure we can keep our citizens safe. Case in point - Conshocken has a HUGEMONGUS fire couple of years ago. Several Del and NJ companies responded for cover ups. Easily a 45 min ride. I really don't se anyone saying "I don't want to travel miles to fight a fire or go to a new fire house" We get a larger response when we go to PA or NJ then to neighboring companies.
But back to the topic. There should never be a fire when no one responds. I might be wrong for pointing the finger at Detroit. I'm sure thier a bunch of great fireifghters and officers. But we need to learn from thier mistake. No one department can handle everything in thier district....NONE. NYC showed it, LA shows it and now detroit showed it. There is no embarassment in calling for help. If I could call for an additinal engine while cutting grass I would. Not calling for sufficent help and burning down a house. buiilding or half the city is embarassing.
But we need to be prepared. What happens after you use up your run card. Is it in the dispatchers hands? Where do you go after ALL the departments in your area have been called. How will you communicate?
So I guess I answered my own question...NEVER, As long as there is a firehouse with equipment and members somewhere in the country you will never run out of resources. Call them, use them.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gregory Borg on
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It really is crazy in Detroit, a whole vibrant urban area deserted. Sad reflection on our auto industry and how we handle the economy.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Our auto industry imploded due to a combination of several factors:
1) The Big 3 automakers continuing "business as usual" because "that's what we do" instead of trending innovations.
2) The automakers' unions increasing the prices of the car maker's products until they priced themselves out of the global market.
3) The automakers and the unions assuming that things would forever stay like they were in the 1960's.
4) Non-competitive designs chosen by the automakers and their R&D divisions.
5) A reluctance to downsize until the plants and divisions that were losing the most money dragged the rest of the company down with it. (Oldsmobile, antiquated, non-productive plants, etc.)
It is sad for Detroit, but at least Detroit is considering an innovative downsizing that will both reflect reality and avoid the necessity to provide services to the one occupied home in almost-completely abandonded neighborhoods.
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Here are a few of the things Detroit firefighters get to deal with on a daily basis;
Abandoned Detroit skyscrapers
The abandoned Fisher body plant
The Packard auto plant, abandoned for over 50 years;
80,000 Detroit houses abandoned
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Permalink Reply by Just Plain Craig Moyer on
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Ben, not being a knucklehead but after a little thought I realized how right you are. I can understand how the ecnomy can affects things. Looking at whats going on in Detroit I'm sure they really don't have the resources to plan for a large scale incident when they trying like hell to deal with the everyday stuff.
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Permalink Reply by Trainer on
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I'm going to have to disagree, it does not take money to form task forces, only origination. Chicago did not add resources nor did the rest of the state, we merely combined depts in a geographical area to meet FEMA'a definition of a task force or strike team.
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If you don't have the money to even provide basic services, you don't have the money to provide task forces.
Here's an example of the tax base Detroit has with which to fund basic services.
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...or when the problem exceeds the capability of all the resources that can arrive in time to impact the outcome...
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That's a great system, and it works fine when you have the money and resources to structure it.
The Chicago area has the money and resources. The Detroit area - particularly the city - does not.
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Permalink Reply by EngineLadder on
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Dave The career guys that you had on you wagon should be ashamed of themselves they took money out of another career firefighters pocket. Its good to know that you had qualified people on your wagon but it still should have never happened. Seeing that you are or were a former bcfd aux firefighter you know that in baltimore we do things alot differently then most places in MD. We have had it happen before with out of city units running mutual aid that they show up and stand there like some yard breathers. On another note the city should have put an off duty member on all these out of city units to tell them how we operate and to get around. But with this new chief who does not have a clue you are probably right even though I hate to say it there will be mutual aid since he is all into that nims bullshit. Dont be upset if members to you or other volly wagons to stay out of our firehouses its happend before it will most likely happen again.
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Just curious, did your chief create the revenue shortfall or decide the amount that the FD's budget was going to be cut, or did the mayor and council do it?
Regardless, if you don't have enough units, there are essentially only two choices - either use mutual aid from wherever you can get it or stack the calls until some of your own units become available. Further, it's not fair for a city to use suburban mutal aid to replace station closures, particularly in the long run. Ask Lawrence, MA about that.
As an aside, you may think NIMS is BS, but I disagree. It's the national standard way to manage incidents from single resource calls through major disasters. It's only as good as the people who run it, but NIMS failures are generally misapplications of the system, not problems with the system itself.
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Permalink Reply by Dave Williams on
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EngineLadder- I'm glad to see your reply. We really do agree on several of the points discussed. Career members riding volly wagons into the jurisdiction where they are employed... A slippery slope at best. I don't know if I would do it, I hope those that do can look in the mirrror and be comfortable with the view. I have had our volly members that are Balt Co career staff show up for transfers to their career stations, I always ask them- are you sure this is what you want to do? It's on them from that point. The volunteer service has it's place. In Harford it's all we have. We run with career people all the time, APG, Balt Co. , no issues. We have some of the most stringent training requirements of Harford County companies. In part due to our heavy internal career involvement, and also due to the fact we run with career units often. In my previous post I was trying to be PC about the yard breathers. They are useless and do exist in places. I'd love to sit and have a beverage, discuss these points further...before the next major event. I'm aware of the MOP regarding off duty members assigned to out of city units, wasn't sure if it was still in place. I remember that being done, even rode a mutual aid wagon one night as a aux ff with the call back ff out of my assigned BCFD station. Don't be too resistant to the "NIMS stuff", it's mandated, it's here to stay and it will keep you out of trouble (as an agency). I do inspections all over the city, we could meet at your station or mine! Stay safe!-
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