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Thought for the day
Some fire officers can lead their personnel through the gates of hell and back... others couldn't lead a herd of cats even if they were wearing turnouts made of tuna...
discuss...
discuss...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by TOMMY on
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CHARLESTON DID THINGS DIFFERENT TO MY FRIEND..
KEEP YOUR EAR TO THE GROUND AND BE OPEN TO CULTURAL FIRE SERVICE CAHNGE IN YOUR ORGANIZATION. KEEP TRAINING AND BECOME MORE IN TUNE WITH NATIONALLY RECONIZED RISK MANAGEMENT PROCEDURES ON THE FIREGROUND. IE.. THE IMPLEMENTATION OF A LOT OF STUFF I HAVENT HEARD YOU MENTION YET...
CHECK OUT THE 2 IN 2 OUT RULES. HELL... BETTER THAN THAT... READ IN GREAT DETAIL THE ROUTLEY REPORT ON THE CHARLESTON SOFA SUPER STORE FIRE FROM 2007. IT SAYS IT ALL WITH REGUARDS TO SAYING IT ALL... AT LEAST 2 DOZEN MAJOR CHANGES WERE RECOMMENDED.. IF WE COULD ALL EMBRACE 10 PERCENT OF WHATS IN THAT REPORT... AND IMPLEMENT IT... MOST OF OUR PROBLEMS WOULD BE OVER.. YOU DONT HAVE TO BE FDNY OR ANY ONE ELSE TO DO IT IN YOUR FIRE DEPARTMENT. THOSE CHARLESTON GUYS DIED WITH LESS THAN 30 MEN ON SCENE.. THEY DID NOT NEED AN 8 ALARM FIRE WITH 200 FIREFIGHTERS IN THE BRONX TO MAKE NATIONAL NEWS AND SHAKE THIER DEPARTMENT TO THE CORE WITH GRIEF.
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Permalink Reply by Wade Seely on
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I can see all of the points made in this discussion, but here is my question.
How is it bad for everyone, chiefs included, to be able to operate a scba?
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To get back to the question the poster asked. I personally believe that it comes down to trust, respect, and that officers ability to instill in his men the "want to" to do a great job and give there all.
TCSS
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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John,
We're not in the Navy, and we're not talking about shipboard firefighting at sea, so that example really isn't pertinent.
You also have ignored several of the points I made and direct questions I've asked, so I'll put them to you again...
1) FDNY (and other big-city departments) are reconsidering putting chief officers inside high-rise fires, due to their command structure at the WTC being decapiptated. That severely hampered their ability to respond to the aftermath. Having more chiefs survive would not only have helped them in the immediate aftermath, it would have helped them for months and maybe years afterward. How would that be a bad thing? Now lets realize that working high rise fires are very, very rare. If you're basing SCBA use by chiefs on them, you're basing the rule on the exception.
2) If accountability is maintained at the command post, how is a chief on the interior going to account for the firefighters assigned to his division/group? That's especially an issue since the accountability system is going to be outside and out of reach, particularly if it's that high rise fire you're discussing.
3) How can a chief whose job is strategy maintain a strategic focus when he is limited to task level or partial tactical level operations while wearing SCBA in smoke or other IDLH conditions?
4) Why is their a need to have chiefs operate in an IDLH environment at all? What is a chief going to be able to do in smoke that a company officer can't do?
5) In a discussion focusing on leadership, why are you focusing on a task-level function like SCBA. You're arguing that every firefighter through the rank of chief should know PPE and SCBA. I haven't said that's bad. However, you're basing your point on the possibility that a chief might have to go interior. My counterpoint is that chiefs on the interior might be a habit in some places, but if you have chiefs on the interior, they're not in a good position to exert leadership, they're probably micromanaging down a level from where their actual responsibilities are, and you're showing the troops that it's more important to be inside than to work strategically.
Remember that some of Charleston's chiefs went interior in the early stages of the SSS fire. They did it in conditions where they didn't even need to wear full PPE or SCBA. That led to them apparently not ever establishing a strategic view of the incident...no 360 size-up, almost no water supply, inadequate manpower, inadequate attack line size, inadequate size-up of the fuel load and the rapid firespread potential...and they did it using strategies that worked for them on virtually every previous fire.
and...6) You seem to dislike NIMS. I won't tell you that NIMS is perfect - for example, I dislike the "Tender" terminology, too. (as an aside...Right, Capt. Busy???) However, NIMS has a lot of critical leadership concepts that include chief officers thinking, acting, and positioning themselves strategically where they are in the best position to exert real leadership. You seem to want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Do you even recognize that the bathwater (NIMS) had a baby (strategic leadership) in it?
Chiefs that get hung up on task-level skills are intentionally blocking out their ability to fully concentrate on strategic-level leadership. I'm a lot less concerned if a chief can show leadership - to a single company by example - by throwing a SCBA on his back than if he can show leadership to everyone at the incident by maintaining strategic focus in a place where SCBA is not needed.
Now let me point out a distinction that you apparently haven't picked up on here...
You're arguing that chiefs should be familiar with PPE and SCBA. I've never said that they shouldn't, yet you continue to argue as if I had said that. However, you're staking your entire position on the possibility that a chief might need to use his/her SCBA, so you're hung up on the chief's ability to use the SCBA. My point is that if a chief is where he or she should be - away from the hazard zone, even if running Division Charlie - then his or her ability to use SCBA really isn't germaine.
I've worked it both ways and in four different parts of the country. I can tell you from experience that the departments that keep the chiefs outside do a better job of firefighter accountability, they do a better job of developing and implementing strategy, they do a better job of not micromanaging the troops, and they do a better job of developing their company officers and teaching them tactics. They also do a better job of communicating, since they have to be able to convey concepts by a calm command presence on the radio rather than by shouting through a mask into someone's ear.
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"His" "Men"...how about a female chief who has female firefighters under her command?
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Permalink Reply by Joey "BigShow" De Piano on
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I agree 10000000% and it is a major reason I feel that someone who has been an officer lower ranks does not or should not be handed the riegns of a higher spot "just cause he has been there "..its bull..our OIC classes need to stop the classroom crap and put these wanna be OIC's out on the tarmac and run a scene with control burn at a academy and if you can not and can not with full support of a crew you do not get your cert and move on and it should be mandatory yearly test hands on
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NIMS also does not have anything to do with apparatus numbering systems...you can use whatever system you or your communications center likes and still be NIMS compliant.
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or her firefighters, sorry i meant no disrespect to our sisters in the service, however that is not the point of my comment which was refering to leadership skills, and not trying to start another argument over semantics
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Reply by Jeff Gaudio 1 day ago
Huh, that reminds me of a former officer in my dept. He was book smart as hell but had no clue how to apply any firefighting skills on a fire ground. He couldn't even use an scba.He was an officer for many years. And if you were wondering, .
he was a chief officer
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller 1 day ago
What does using a SCBA have to do with leadership? Chief officers should be outside the hazard zone directing the troops. Company officers should be inside with the troops, if an offensive operation is indicated.
This was the basis for my debate here. When the first poster mentions a chief officer who couldn't use an SCBA, your response was what does that have to do with leadership. My issue is that an SCBA is a basic piece of safety PPE which everyone should know how to use. What does using an SCBA have to do with leadership? When a chief officer doesn't know how to use one?....everything. If a chief officer can't use basic PPE, then that shows a lack of leadership to the troops. If the chief officer, who can't use an SCBA, sends me in for a task, it is in the back of my mind if they really know what they are doing. (reading the posts made, I read this as an officer not familiar with equipment, not because of health issues)
My reason for using the Navy and military analogy is to show that even the most senior officers still know the basic PPE and know how to use it....as should be the case on every fire department everywhere. Your retort to the equipment issue, addressed by Jeff, was that a chief officer should also know all the equipment on the dept, from USAR to HAZMAT stuff. I understand your statement there, but an SCBA is basic PPE, not special rescue equipment. That is why I took your stance as saying "so what if a chief officer doesn't know how to use and SCBA" "what does and SCBA have to do with leadership?" If a chief doesn't know basic safety equipment, how can they tell the troops to use it? How can there be a reprimand for not doing so, if the chief doesn't know how to use it.
As for interior aspects, all I'm saying is that it has happened, still happens and can happen, irregardless if you think every white hat should never see the inside of a structure. FDNY may be reconsidering ops, but has it changed? Maybe you guys have the staffing to pull company officers to be doing a branch or division operations so all the white hats can be outside, not too many depts do. In a larger scale incident it is my contention a company officer is best served with the company. If that means a chief officer goes inside to fulfill a company officer role, then so be it. I'm just saying it is completely possible a chief officer may be in a position where they should have an SCBA.
As for NIMS, no I'm not a big fan. I do realize the importance, but I disagree on a federal mandate of the terminology. That's not up to me, but just an opinion. I'm not a chief officer, I'm a plain ass FF and have not been privy to all the further NIMS training our officers have gone through. I'll get there one day, but it isn't today. Everything we were told for changes was because of NIMS, including the 3 or 4 digit numbering BS.
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You still are not answering my direct questions regarding maintaining the strategic picture and accountability.
I'd appreciate it if you'd do so.
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Permalink Reply by Rick K. on
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sounds like you hit a sore subject with someone? Well I agree somewhere down the road in his job he had to use scba? Thats pretty bad if a chief doesnt know how to pack up!!!!!Not saying he should but you think he would know how??
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And you are not acknowledging the fact that a chief officer may be placed in a position where an SCBA is warranted or that such scenarios do indeed happen, nor are you acknowledging that a chief officer could fill a lessor role than strategic. You also haven't acknowledged what using an SCBA has to do with leadership, especially when that was the basis of the discussion. I would appreciate if you would do so.
Maybe in your operations there is accountability person along with every chief officer assigned to a branch or division role for those crews operating there. Yet, somehow we have been able to account for personnel without each branch or divison having their own accountability, because that was maintained outside with command. Maybe where you are a chief officer can never be used for a tactical role and that you have enough personnel where you can always take a company officer to do so.
Well here is how it worked when we had a chief officer on the inside. IC was outside in the command vehicle, along with the accountability. We had a large 3 story apartment complex with about 12 units under a high fire load and there was a defensive operation going on. In order to stop the fire from spreading to the other 60 or so units, it was sthe strategic plan to make basically a 3 story trench cut in the complex. There were several crews assigned to accomplish this task and a chief officer, along with a safety person were placed inside. (the safety person was not roaming around, but was with the chief to maintain a partner...insert whatever title you want to there)
There was 60 plus units without fire behind them and they were not operating on air, but due to the complex, there was no way to have a good view by being outside. They were not on air and had control of the crews by establishing a branch. The accountability person inside the command vehicle had a record of the crews assigned to that chief to make the trench cut. Command sent that chief in there because there were no other company level officers to do the task. There were crews on the outside on the other 3 sides doing defensive operations, there was noway to have a person on the 4th side outside due to the size of the structure. After the trench was cut, crews were assigned inside to basically make a defensive approach on the inside to keep the fire from advancing any further. Damn, low an behold the strategy worked. 20 some units were lost, but 60 plus were saved. As for accountabilty, it was maintained just like a room and contents fire. IC would ask for a par and each company would respond in with their par, along with the saftey personnel, branch commanders and so forth.
The thing is that just because one wears a white helmet doesn't mean they will always be in a strategic role. When I was a volly, I have been in situations where we could get a couple chiefs responding to a call. We would wait the time for any other vollies to show up, butt here have been numerous times a chief acted in the company officer role. One chief would be IC, the other was the company officer. Happens everyday, just because they are a chief, doesn't limit them strictly to a command role.
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