Acquired Structure/Live Burning Training-Should You?

Added the link to the document:http://www.in.gov/dhs/files/nfpa1403.pdf

I have a blog posted that discusses the training death of Baltimore City FD Fire Paramedic Apprentice Rachel Wilson.
NFPA 1403 discourages the use of acquired structures and especially if you have a certified burn tower available to you.
So, my question to this group is: do you use acquired structures for training and do you follow NFPA 1403 when you do?
Here is the link to my blog: http://www.firefighternation.com/profiles/blogs/baptism-by-fire-or-...
TCSS.
Art

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Permalink Reply by Jason Brooks on January 1, 2009 at 3:35pm

We use acquired structures whenever we can. Usually a couple of times a year and usually big houses. We never burn the same room twice. We follow 1403. If you don't you are foolish to say the least. Multiple water supplies, heavy pre-planning, walk throughs, ventilating prior to starting, multiple hoselines in place. Lots of instructors. And the list goes on. If anyone needs help setting up a live burn, let me know. We do so many that we have all of the paperwork that we use computerized.

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Permalink Reply by FETC on January 1, 2009 at 5:08pm

Art,

Yes we burn in acquired structures and Yes we use NFPA 1403 to the letter.
That LODD report and tragedy was not a NFPA 1403 burn.

FETC

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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on January 1, 2009 at 5:53pm

We also burn in acquired structures, and follow 1403.

One department we worked with on a controlled burn had no knowledge of or intent to follow the 1403 standard. Fortunately it was a "drop it" burn and we were only requested to supply water.

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Permalink Reply by Oldman on January 1, 2009 at 6:08pm

While we might use acquired structures for search and rescue, wall breaching, ventilation, and such we are no longer able to do live fire training, and it's not because of 1403. It's a matter of air quality.

According to the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality, in order to get approval for live fire training, ALL roofing shingles and felt paper must be removed, ALL wiring must be removed, ANY plastic pipe or vinyl siding must be removed. In older structures, asbestos must be remediated. Violation of their rules, can result in the department being fined for an illegal burn. By the time we do all that, theres nothing left but the framing and roof decking. The drywall has so many holes and openings that you couldn't follow 1403 if you tried, unless you spent a bunch of money to patch the interior.

As far as the Baltimore incident, the acquired structure wasn't the problem. Not following 1403, and common sense rules and policies was the biggest factor in her unnecessary death.

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Permalink Reply by firedog14 on January 1, 2009 at 7:11pm

Acquired structure all the way. My thinking is if you use a burn building you cannot really see how fire acts and reacts as much as you can in a real structure. Also the unfamiliarity of an acquired structure aids in search and rescue training as well as team building since they don't have a mental picture of the layout.

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Brough on January 1, 2009 at 7:26pm

Our department does NOT do live burns... However our closest mutual aid department, which happens to be a block away, does occasionally. The last on I went to with them not a sole other than me went from our department. I was told that I could if I wanted to, so I went. The home was actually 2 trailers pushed together and attached. The new owner wanted them gone. No preperations had been done. Everything was intact in the home. There was even furniture in the home. Tires were still on under the underpinning and everything. The last "training" burn got out of control when the wind shifted. This department's engine was only capable of 350 GPM and they only had one 2 1/2 supply line to the truck. Once they set a 11/2 water wall up, and 2 11/2 attacks that was all the truck could do. The assistant fire cheif on that department came VERY VERY close to getting hurt. I will never NEVER go to another burn with the "wrecking crew" as we call them. (That's another story for another time)

Vincennes Township has a burn trailer that we are going to try to go to as a department, it's about a 30 minute drive so it isn't too far.

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Permalink Reply by Glen Garland on January 1, 2009 at 7:40pm

We use acquired structures when availible as we do not have a burn building anywhere near us. We also follow 1403 as well as common sense safety procedures. We try to use the structure prior to the burn for RIT, search, ventilation, wall breaching , ladder work etc. I think the bottom line is what poses the greater danger...a tightly controlled burn giving new FFs some real experience or relying on book knowledge and some small hay in buckets fires and then sending them out ot slay the dragon w/o the real experience? I firmly believe in live fire training using every safety precaution, 1403, and alot of common sense. Instructor discipline and experience also plays a large role in the safety of the troops. Stay safe and train like it counts...because it does.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Brooks on January 1, 2009 at 8:06pm

We generally remove all shingles as well. Asbestos removal/remediation is an EPA requirement.

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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on January 1, 2009 at 8:25pm

For those who haven't seen it/read it, here is the document in PDF: http://www.in.gov/dhs/files/nfpa1403.pdf
It's in the public domain, so you can print it and re-print it if you'd like.
TCSS.
Art

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Permalink Reply by Matthew Cosgrove on January 1, 2009 at 8:31pm

We use acquired structures whenever we can, as long as they are deemed safe by the chief and we have an certified teacher on hand. There is a lot of work we must do before the burn...It almost makes it not worth it on larger homes. The roof must be striped, all wiring must be removed...ect.