Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on September 11, 2008 at 7:11am

Why wear your helmet at all...?? Without it you will sense that beam coming down on you so much quicker....and imagine how easy it will be to "sense" that chunk of sheetrock as it comes down to you....you will actually be able to validate the laws of gravity......we have PPE for a reason and it should ALL be worn as a complete unit....it was designed for a reason and that reason was to keep our sorry asses safe and free from injury.....I think I have said enough on this subject.....Stay safe and always keep the faith.....Paul

Permalink Reply by Damon Dyer on September 11, 2008 at 7:56am

Ain't no way i am going in without mine. If you get hurt the first thing they ask was you wearing full ppe .

Permalink Reply by Kip on September 11, 2008 at 8:11am

Uh, I always wear mine and I have been in fires where it was almost unbearable to take the heat even with it on (when performing a search for a possible victim), so I don't know how you can go in without it. I have also been in fires where you can feel the heat coming from one direction, but the fire is actually in the other direction. It is called reflection. Listening for the fire, or as some others have said, properly ventilate the building before starting the attack. Not only does this allow you to see better, it also controls the spread of the fire if you do it right. Oh yea, it also reduces the risk of flashover, and as one person said previously, in as true flashover, you do not escape without injury unless you are right at the door when it happened.

Permalink Reply by rfdjumper on September 11, 2008 at 8:23am

I wear my hood to keep my neck warm in the winter, I also wear it to keep my ears and neck cool in a fire. If I need to use the human thermometer I can pull it to the side to expose an ear.

Permalink Reply by John on September 11, 2008 at 9:01am

Still being kinda new I always wear mine, the only time I don't is if we respond to a Medic assist call.

Permalink Reply by Kimberly A Bownas on September 11, 2008 at 9:31am

In my department we all are issued a nomex hood. We are required to wear it and that is that. I wouldn't be caught in a fire without it. That is just stupid in my book. When I was little I got burned by hot gravy and that was bad enough, I would not want to be burned by a fire or hot embers. I also have had a steam burn and that really sucks. We are given this stuff to help keep us safe and burn free and to not use it is irresponsible on your part. You said that you have two young ones at home, you should be thinking about them and what it would be like for you and them if you are burned bad and you can't hug them because of the pain and all the treatments you will have to go through to get better. Also you have newbies that are relying on you to teach them the right way of doing things and you are not setting a good example. And I am sure that you are the first to reprimand them when they don't wear their hood. Think long and hard and do the right thing and wear the hood. Be safe....

Permalink Reply by Tom Chmielowiec Jr. on September 11, 2008 at 1:05pm

I wear my hood on all fires, and on cold days- although i never wear my helmet hood, that is usally tucked up in my helmet ( for good reason too, it doesn't fit right when i wear it with my hood and mask on.) if anyone knows how to adjust the hood on my cairns new yorker- please do tell- i may start using it. but, why not wear the nomex? Fires are getting hotter, i want to know i have protection over my whole body.

Permalink Reply by Dave on September 11, 2008 at 10:11pm

"Uh, I always wear mine and I have been in fires where it was almost unbearable to take the heat even with it on (when performing a search for a possible victim), "

This is what I was talking about in my earlier post, and please do not jump all over me I am not picking on anyone here. If the heat is that unbearable thru your turnout gear...WHAT are you doing there?? Do you really think anyone with that bad of conditions will be worth saving?? People go in too far thinking they are protected because they dont feel the heat, and when they do...Bam...to late!!

Stay safe, wear what you want, but dont think those who disagree with every word the NFPA states is wrong.

Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on September 12, 2008 at 8:49am

My hood goes on when I get dressed for any fire call (alarms, etc included, clearly not for medicals, etc). I fold it down around my collar so it's easily accessible and over the straps of my face piece if needed. It's there, I'll use it.

Permalink Reply by FETC on September 12, 2008 at 10:48am

Dave and TJ.

The video you are talking about is from a fire prevention open house demonstration with two newbies with NO experience or training. They had performed a dry run of what was supposed to happen before and without any training, they only knew what they had seen before as firefighters go in with gear and don't get burned. So that is an extremely bad example for this post.

As far as the comment that if your ears are hot under a hood you are in too far, that is another bad example. The hood provides the LEAST amount of thermal protection as compared to the rest of our gear, including the boots. So I would return to my original post for those who may not have read page 1 as I feel under "the standards in place for PPE", the use of today's highly protective gear, requires REALISTIC training.

I fully understand your concern and thought process as I too can remember the days of non-hoods and feeling the heat was easier plus we were not inside when the fires flashed.

Things to think about are: todays fires are hotter, they are actually flashing quicker. This is caused by many things but I will expound on two. The furnishings are made with more hydrocarbon fuels, synthetic fuels and other compounds that when the pyrolysis process occurs, they off gas benzene, tolulene and acrolein. With just the last one, it can flash at very low temperatures, in the 400F range. hence earlier low temperature flashovers are being reported by victims.

2. Due to structures being tighter now-a-days with the economy and such (cost of heating oil) this also has a direct correlation to seeing earlier onset of flashovers without adequate ventilation.

Not wearing your hood in today's insult is asking for trouble and potentially could have deadly consequences. Noboday wants to see you walking around without ears, after many years of surgery and skin grafting. May I suggest using your hood at more training fires focus on thermal insult recognition to identify, heat through the hood with multiple exposures. I am not talking about the fire academy with hay and pallets, acquired structures with the approved fuels. It can be done. Another way to locate the fire is to cover your hooded ear and sense if it gets hotter or cooler? But what about using our "other" senses, as suggested by Joe and Ben, (using our sight - with a TIC) We must break the habit of forgetting the TIC on initial attack, start carrying it on every routine alarm, assign it to a seat for tools required to be carried regardless of the calls nature. If a guy knows his seat is supposed to carry the irons, they usually bring them to a fire or a fire alarm right? What do you think will happen when a lawyer gets the incident report with a civilian fatality, and the report says the guys didn't use the TIC until overhaul? I know if my guys forget the TIC, long before the death, or the lawsuit, my Deputy is gonna call me to the hot seat. Fix the human behavior with training and riding assignments. Or lastly, my favorite being sound. Stop, ask for all quiet and hold your breath. Listen for sounds of fire burning or crackling, etc. Cover your ear with a gloved hand and listen to see if the sound gets louder or softer. If it becomes louder then the fire is on that side of the room or down that hallway.

As for how to fix the second part of my concerns, engine companies need to perform some ventilation upon arrival, as the container can only absorb and hold so much heat before it flashes. This may depend on many things like delayed notification, response times, and proficiency in deploying the first line, etc. And flashover may be emminent within the first few minutes of initial entry.... The size up process needs to be thorough and we as engine companies may need to delay an attack for an extra minute to provide some rapid and systematic horizontal ventilation before fire attack is made with our full PPE on.

Best of luck... FETC

Permalink Reply by AssChief7 on September 12, 2008 at 11:48am

As far as the comment that if your ears are hot under a hood you are in too far, that is another bad example. The hood provides the LEAST amount of thermal protection as compared to the rest of our gear, including the boots.

I am just using this part to point out that this is not 100% true. If you are wearing your PPE correctly then your ears are one of the best protected parts of your body. Your ears are protected first by the nomex hood. Next you have the ear flaps on your helmet that is pulled down thus giving you two layers or protection on your ears so far. Then you have your collar on your running gear that should be up giving you three layers or protection.

Now with this being said I am not the best person to say how anybody should wear their gear. I tell my new guys that they should wear all their gear. Personnaly I usually don't wear my nomex on the street if I am on the engine company. Being on the line I have the protection of the line. If I am on the truck I will usually wear my nomex. But I also remember wearing long Nomex coats, 3/4 boots, no hoods, and riding the back step. But when I am not wearing my hood you can bet your ass I have my ear flaps down and usually my collar up.

Permalink Reply by FETC on September 12, 2008 at 12:07pm

In defense to the three layer concept my collar does not cover my ears, many here have older leathers without flaps, and if you did have a hood, flaps and collar down, it still provides less protection as compared to a coat with the 3 layer nomex or pbi shell, thermal barrier with internal combination liner for heat and steam protection.

So now that we are citing quotes instead of the root of this blog, lets look at yours...

Now with this being said I am not the best person to say how anybody should wear their gear. I tell my new guys that they should wear all their gear. Personnaly I usually don't wear my nomex on the street if I am on the engine company. Being on the line I have the protection of the line. If I am on the truck I will usually wear my nomex. But I also remember wearing long Nomex coats, 3/4 boots, no hoods, and riding the back step. But when I am not wearing my hood you can bet your ass I have my ear flaps down and usually my collar up.

Hey kid, do as I say.... not as I do...

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