The Big Line

is it just me or does it seem that alot of todays younger guys are not choosing the proper line for the task at hand i know alot of departments mine included has sops on when to deploy the big line are people not wanting to waste the time with putting  a 2 1/2" line in service

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Permalink Reply by Vic Silverfish on February 20, 2011 at 9:37pm
Don't get caught up with pulling the 2 1/2" for interior attack. It moves a lot of water and will fight a lot of fire, but a properly applied 1 3/4" will do a hell of a lot of damage in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.

Check out how much fire an 1 1/2" can knock down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JzpFBdUGE0

The downside of using a 2 1/2" when going interior is the lack of manoeuvrability. Here's an LODD caused in part by the crew's inability to advance the 2 1/2" line far enough to get a knock on the fire.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face201010.html
Permalink Reply by richard sees on February 20, 2011 at 11:22pm
For one thing how many people carry 21/2" on the apparatus? Here where I work we have 13/4" or 3" preconnects. And it's not just here. I've seen it in many places. It seems to me a lot of these younger people think that you can flow 200gpm from a 13/4. You can but only with a short lay. One of the young part timers that works with me called his vollie chief because when I showed him a pic in Fire House Magazine of a ff with a 13/4 line standing alone in front of a fully involved building and said it was a waste of water because he was probably only flowing a max 150 gpm because he was holding the hose standing upright alone. I told him if he was flowing 200 gpm the hose would be as hard to handle as a 21/2" because the kick back would be the same. I told him the 13/4 was the booster hose of the new milllennium. It's pulled on everything like the booster hose was back in the 50's. If you don't believe me check out some old Fire Engineering from the 1950's. He didn't believe me. I think this crap of thinking you can fight large hot fires with 13/4 hose came from FDNY back when they were using Rapid Water and could flow 200 - 250 gpm through 4-500 feet of 13/4. The switch to 13/4 was to give us higher flows for interior firefighting because of the change in fire behavior but people seem to have forgotten that.
Permalink Reply by Paul Shapiro on February 21, 2011 at 9:45am
Perhaps the title of this forum should be the BIG FLOW. Remember fire hose is actually just another tool in the tool box. 2-1/2" and 1-3/4" can both flow big water and have there place. Don't get caught up in the one size fits all.
Permalink Reply by Paul Brutto on February 21, 2011 at 9:52am
My dept uses a combination type attack for incident with heavy fire showing. We use deck guns and portable monitors to lay an initial big hit on the fire. We then take advantage of the 1 3/4s manuverability to knock the remainder of the fire down.
Permalink Reply by Paul Shapiro on February 21, 2011 at 9:56am
I think alot of people associate the handling of a big line with standing up while dischargeing the water. Granted there are some situations where this technique is required but if you think about the times when the big line is pulled I would bet that most were a stationary hit to knockdown the fire. With this being the case then why not just sit on it. With flows up to 400 gpm one firefighter can sit on the line and deliver the water.
Permalink Reply by Wade Seely on February 21, 2011 at 10:23am
It comes down to engine crew understanding the fire conditions, when pulling up on scene. TThe estimated size of the fire now, where it will be when the lines are pulled and ready to go, what type of construction, and a variety of other indicators that show themselve on an intial size up. IMHO I would say that if the thought of pulling "the big hose" crosses is your mind it is probably a good idea to pull it. Afterall it is better to have it and not need it then to not have it and finding yourself needing it. On top of that if it is a room and contents or sfd with a room or two involved why tire yourself out with a 2.5. Like Vic said you can fight a lot of fire with a "properly" applied 1.75.

TCSS
Permalink Reply by richard sees on February 21, 2011 at 1:59pm
Don't get me wrong here. What y'all say has merit and I agree with y'all. I'm just saying that 13/4 is pulled and used more than it should be on fires that require higher flows. And one other thing, if we have to use 21/2 maybe we should pair engine companies to do it. Many fire depts do it. Maybe we should rethink our sop's or g's or whatever you call them.
Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on February 21, 2011 at 2:15pm
I have to disagree with Vic. 'Properly applied" 1.75" line WILL do a lot of damage...IF it's flowing enough water. There lies the problem. Lack of training on basic engine company ops that ends up in tragedy should be no surprise. That can be applied to just about anything in this business. If your crews are not well rehearsed and trained on stretching line, positions, etc. then of course you can't expect favorable results.

Engines should be set-up for OPTIONS, and the staff should be trained on those options. Supply and fire attack. Forward LDH lay, "hand-jack" off the rear, or off the rear to a forward hydrant...reverse lay, or direct into the hydrant. Pre-connects, or static bed lays. Stand-pipe loads used with reverse-lays...all different ways to obtain supply and stretch attack lines for us. Just depends on access to the fire, streets, obstructions, etc.

I go back to my initial post. Do you actually KNOW what you are flowing through the use of flow meters, or are you just guessing by using some calculations? Hose is NOT "created equal", and neither are fire apparatus. Those are all too often over-looked factors.

2.5" hose CAN be handled and advanced when your personnel are placed on the line properly, it's proven day in and day out. Yet staffing IS the deciding factor for ADVANCEMENT. Regardless of well you know how to use the 1.75" hose line, if it's not going to flow the water required to confine and control the fire, your not going to make progress.

I would recommend strongly looking into 2" hose with the right nozzle for higher-flows and easier handling. Yet just like anything else in this business, or ANY business, if something or a concept is unfamailiar, it won't be embraced until it becomes main stream.
Permalink Reply by backsteprescue on February 21, 2011 at 2:33pm
How much time does it really take to put a 2.5" in service? With a well trained and motivated crew it shouldn't be much a difference between a 1.75 and 2.5.....

We try to harp on the "big fire, big water" concept in the fire classes I help teach and in our probationary training program.
Permalink Reply by eddie g on February 21, 2011 at 2:36pm
yea, well the first time that 1-3/4 does.nt stop the fire and they need to go asses over elbows, they are sure to think twice next time!
its all about sops and scene size-up. we are to far from learning the basics, its pathetic
Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on February 21, 2011 at 3:33pm
As I mentioned earlier, we run 2" attack lines (100' x 1.75 is the trash line).
There is a great discussion in the blog section that does some comparisons of weight versus gpm of 1.75, 2 and 2.5 inch lines. You can read the full article at http://www.firefighternation.com/profiles/blogs/factoring-weightper...

From the blog, the following:

1¾" Line
A 200' length of charged 1.75" hoseline weighs approximately 288 lbs., so 100 feet (the length required for advancing the hose) weighs 144 lbs. Minimum staffing for that line would be two firefighters. Equipped with a 15/16" smooth-bore tip at 50-psi nozzle pressure, they would be flowing approximately 185 gpm

2" Line
A 200' length of charged 2" hoseline weighs approximately 360 lbs., so 100 feet (the length required for advancing the hose) weighs 180 lbs. Staffed by two firefighters, the weight would be approximately 25% more than the 1.75" hoseline. With a 1 1/8" smooth-bore tip at 50-psi nozzle pressure, they would be flowing approximately 265 gpm

2.5" Line
A 200' length of charged 2.5” hoseline weighs approximately 549 lbs., so 100 feet (the length required for advancing the hose) weighs 274 lbs. Staffed by three firefighters, the weight would be approximately 50% more than on the 2"hoseline. With a 1 1/8" smooth-bore tip at 50-psi nozzle pressure, they would be flowing approximately 265 gpm

To recap:
2 FF's on a 1.75" line are advancing 144lbs of (100') hose for ~185 gpm flow
2 FF's on a 2" line are advancing 180lbs of (100') hose for ~265 gpm flow
3 FF's on a 2.5" line are advancing 274lbs of (100') hose for ~265 gpm flow

In other words, a 2" line will, with an increase of about 25% more weight than the 1.75, gives you nearly 50% more gpm. With a 2.5" line, 3 firefighters will advance a hose that weighs about 50% more than 2" but gives them about the same flow, 265gpm.

p.s. I'm just copying the info, I'm not a pump operator, just a hose monkey.
Permalink Reply by Kelly Walls on February 21, 2011 at 6:57pm
Keep it simple, big fire gets big hoses.......not much to think about and very effective for containment and extinguishment

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