The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Poor Fire Department Response
A neighboring full time city fire dept (public safety) had a single story single family dwelling fire last night at approx 4am. I spoke with the homeowners and they said it took the fire dept 25 minutes to get the first apparatus on scene. This home is in city limits about 1 mile from the departments sub station which houses 1 ladder and 2 pumpers. And the headquarters station is approx 2 miles away which houses 1 pumper 1 engine and 1 rescue. The homeowner said the smoke alarm woke them up and they exited the house quickly. The fire was in the incipent stage when they exited their home (approx 1650 sq ft) and called 911 to report the fire. Home was a total loss by time emergency crews arrived on scene. Anyways to get to the point this is unexceptable in my book. The fd was not on any other calls at the time. They have 4 stations all within 7 miles of this home. Each station is manned by one engineer and all public safety officers report to the scene with their bunker gear in their patrol cars. What is the problem here? Is it the 911 system or is it the lazy fd. I ran mutual aid with this dept before and it is a total cluster on scene no command presence, and everyone just pulls hose and freelances and pretty much do whatever they want to do. Just needed to vent ....puts a bad image for all firefighters because people talk about that type of stuff. Has anyone else seen a similar situation such as this and were any changes made within the department. Thanks
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
-
What is the problem here? Is it the 911 system or is it the lazy fd.
The first issue is that this is a Public Safety Dept, the problem befalls those citizens and taxpayers that believe that having people do police, fire, and EMS is the cat's ass and such a great cost savings. Meanwhile looking at the aspect, you have skeleton crews to be able to respond and if those patrol officers are out doing PD stuff, they just are not available for the fire aspect....and vice versa. In conclusion, such depts may look good on paper, but in reality are not the best option for the public.....problem is many people look at numbers and money vs reality.
The issue most likely is that such a dept is small and that it is quite possible those on duty on patrol could be indisposed of or quite a distance from the fire scene. Many suc depts are also complimented with volunteers, which can be hit or miss. If the dept is staffing with one engineer and others are to respond, well then quite simply, the plan fell apart. This is called a lesson learned and is important to show the bean counters and naysayers there is a reason to have seperate police and fire, there simply is enough work for them to be seperate.
Right now we have one public safety dept in the state and there are issues they do face. When it comes to the fire end of things, they really do rely on MA quite a bit and actually there are FF's on the dept here that get upset with being utilized as automatic aid for fire calls in this dept's area. Automatic aid does differ from MA. On the professional end of things, these guys are good and do know and do their jobs, even as public safety, but they just become short staffed when it comes to the fire aspect. However, they do handle it better, they do 24s with 8 hours as a police and the next 16 as fire/EMS. If they are on patrol and a fire comes in, they act as a cop, they don't do any fire work. The way it sounds, this dept doesn't operate as such and depends on a duty police to be a FF as well......well such an incident shows why this doesn't work.
In my book this is unacceptable as well. Public Safety depts work on paper, but start to stretch the resources when there is more involvement. In the end it is bean counters and politicians pushing such crap and they are also the ones who seldom care about the outcomes. It takes people to realize such concepts are not all they are cracked up to be.
Oh and just some random info, the public safety dept personnel pull in the highest incomes as compared to other agencies, so the "cost savings" touted really are not there.
-
Permalink Reply by Fabulous Heather Days of Summer on
-
Jordan while I understand your desire to vent. I caution you are easily identified in this forum, and so would be your "neighboring dept" so without all the facts, it is important to reserve judgment... and give them the benefit of the doubt, perhaps?
And if I were to analyze, these are a few things I would take into consideration...
A) I have never heard a homeowner report an accurate "arrival on scene" time. Perhaps a actual time from the dispatcher would more accurately reflect timing. Also homeowners rarely give an accurate account of the fire status, since they can only see "from their disoriented sleepy view" one part of the fire.
B) Disoriented homeowners calling 911 can take a few minutes to get their story straight to the dispatcher. (and who looks at their watch when they first call 911... who even has a watch on to sleep... or were they guess-timating?)
C) Sleeping people... even FFs... take a few extra minutes per task to get on scene as they try to wake up and think clearly and drive safely. Semi-conscious FFs fall down flights of stairs enroute to their trucks, crash their trucks enroute to the scene or make tactical driving errors like missing a turn on a road or mis-understanding the directions, or details of the call.
D) weather, fog, rain, animals, terrain, etc.
if you add a few minutes to each task... it adds up quickly...
1-2 minutes for homeowner to call
1-2 minutes for homeowner to convey clear problem/location
1-2 minutes for dispatcher to collect proper info
1-2 minutes to tone FD
1-2 minutes for FD to hear tone and wake up
1-2 minutes to clear head
1-2 minutes to get to gear
1-2 minutes to collect all people in truck
1-2 minutes to sufficiently obtain all data to get to fire site
then drive time...
do you start to see how every little task can add up quickly ?
do you see how adding even 1 minute to a few tasks can double response time?
but remember what is the first rule of FFing - stay safe... they can not speed up and be reckless and get injured.
statistically look at injuries of FFs in the fire house as the "run" to get on a truck. Running should not be permitted. Calculated movement is essential.
statistically look at the number of accidents that happen in fire apparatus due to driver error - and often that error is fatigue and slower decision making skills - and driving the apparatus faster than their brain is making decisions out of a dead sleep.
Just somethings to consider when you look at the big picture.
Good luck with your quest to provide top-notch fire service ... that too is important!
So what could be done, IF ANYTHING, differently to improve the performance of the FD?
sometimes I am amazed at how fast an FD arrives on scene - sometimes I think FDs are reckless trying to rush, and sometimes I think FDs suffer some from the human factor - all matters are dependent upon a human which is a continually changing variable. This is not like McDonalds timing how fast they get the customers through the drive-thru window - there are way more important matters at stake - and each matter must be handled with care and due diligence and caution.
-
Permalink Reply by capcityff on
-
Honestly though, half of those things shouldn't have to happen.
1-2 minutes to wake up? Then another 1-2 to clear head? haha That's ridiculous. If we aren't out of the fire house in less than a minute(for a fire), there's a problem. I know this it may not be a career department, but why should volunteers get time to "clear their head" when career guys don't when volleys are supposed to be held to the same standards?
4 minutes to put on your gear and get in the truck? Should be able to through your gear on in 30 seconds.
Even the 2 minutes to figure out where you're going is pretty unacceptable.
Not trying to stir things up, but I really don't understand almost half of the reasons that you mentioned. Those reasons have NOTHING to do with being unsafe. They are being lazy/poorly trained.
The poster stated that the fire house is staffed with a guy and is a mile away with another 2 miles away. Then the others should meet him on scene. So that first truck should have been on scene in minutes. Even if he can't go inside alone, there's things that could be done.
-
-
I know... I know...
I just wanted him to find out the facts before jumping to conclusions... and calling anyone lazy...
and to TRY to get him to look at some other angles... even a few I used for dramatic affect... since I don't know ANY actual details about this call and its true parameters...
-
Permalink Reply by Michael David White on
-
Our biggest problem here is our 911 system. We get paged way too late. Anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes after the call reaches 911! I could go on for a long time about our system. In your case it seems the Chief has no authority or respect in his/her department If he is giving the orders then the FD does what they gotta do. Sounds like a Chief problem with a lack of monthly training on everybody's role in the FD. That would be my guess.
-
Permalink Reply by Charlie Patton on
-
Well folks I am with a volley dept from the tone time getting to station maning truck reponding to scene is about 6-8 minutes.Thats waking up geting dressed leaving the house driving to station gearing up get on truck driving to scene.
all in all within 8-10 minutes we have water flowing after tone sometimes alittle quicker.During the day add about 2 minutes to total time due to more traffic during day that is about our average.Now if we are responding to assit another city it may be 20 minute from tone to arriving on scene.Now if it takes 5-10 minutes for them to get the tone out the fire dept is not at fault that falls on your dispatch you can only repond when you know about it. If they dont tone you out then how do you know theres a fire. Thats my thoughts
-
Permalink Reply by Just Plain Craig Moyer on
-
I've been a responder, a call taker and a victim. I've never driventhe engine slow (even when I should have), I always tried to enter the call as quickly as possible and as a victim, while working at 9-1-1 and an active FF, I called the 9-1-1 center to find out how the *&$%^ ambulance was taking so )(@#$ long to come get my mommy (yes, she was mommoy instead of mom because I was so upset) This was in the days before regular ambulance crews. I literally cursed out the dispatcher but found out later that it only took them 4 mins to get to the house.
It seems like forever, If you just sit in your living for 5 mins with no TV or something to read it seems like a long time. But when something traumatic is happening times changes for everyone.
And yes I did appologize to the dispatcher I cursed out and even bought him lunch for a week.
-
Permalink Reply by Fireyladd - Retired Chief Sharp on
-
I agree with Heather's comments about this discussion. As Chief I arrive on-scene before the crews. I respond from my home to the calls. Time seems to drag on forever when I am on-scene and waiting for the crew to arrive. Ultimately though we expect to deal with all calls in a timely manner the real issue is to do them safely and efficiently. We didnt cause the incident. Yes the public expects us to mitigate their problem as best we can and as fast as possible. However, reality determines that we will deal with it as best we can given the circumstances. To pass judgment on this incident is to simply accuse without merit. We wernt there and dont really know what happened. Thank God we dont live in glass houses!
-
Permalink Reply by ashfire on
-
Before I joined the fire dept, there was only answer up crews coming from home. The dept then built a bunkroom and crews slept in or moved in to live in the station. Then the county started a career service so we had a crew of a Sgt, engineer and two FF during the day then we had two career personel that would rotate from day to night along with volunteers.
Then the vol chief reduced down night manning to one career ff and volunteers.
Has time went on the volunteers changed with the ways of the county and started reducing down and no answer ups except vol chiefs. There were times the career ff was by themselves. The present vol chief asked for more career ff to keep the station going which is a carrer LT or Capt and three carrer ff 7/24 and what vols walk in the door. Vols living in the station ended under our present chief because he sort of made members move out because he felt they were bums using the station has a flop house so some left the dept. Some will sleep in but only one night a week.
One thing is getting out the door. The crew has about two minutes to get out the door after the alarm has been broadcast twice on two channels. If its a building fire we get a dispatch and response of 4 engines 2 trucks a heavy rescue and a batt chief and what vol chiefs answer up. If a units doesn't come up or goes undermanned, additional units are called. What part of the response area the call is in. Then when on the scene is the 2 in and 2 out rule so the crew might stand in front of the building until the next unit picks up the hydrant and the crew moves up to the front of the building. The RIT crew has to show up. Positioning of units and call up of addition crews and units after the IC has made their size up. If its a working fire a basic ambulance and paramedic ambulance have to dispatched. Now we have a career of 4 so if the ambulance is called on a medical before a fire call then you got a 2 man crew on the fire apparatus unless some vols are in the house. Then the vols might be on the medical call if they are around. It depends on who is in the house at the time and who goes.
-
Permalink Reply by Andrew on
-
One time my father and I had to call 911 for my mother, as she was becoming delusional and had extreme stomach pains. It seemed like my father was on the phone FOREVER, before I told him to tell them that it was a "firemen's family", to which, at least I was initially told, that we'd get "everything from the fleet to respond" to our home.
I was a little upset that it took that statement, but it certainly expedited the process. A police cruiser and an ambulance showed up relatively fast after that, but I was somewhat upset to see no fellow vollies on the rig, only two paid first responders.
And yes, when you're upset, it's ok to call them "Mommy". I felt the same exact way, although I wish I did more. I wish I comforted her more, but I think that I was also in shock, as I had never seen my mother in such a way. When they got there I helped get her onto the stretcher and bring her out into the front yard, ensuring that she was adequately covered and warm. She's fine now, but that night is still very vivid in my mind.
Also, I had my pager within the area, so I could personally hear the delay from the initial phone call to the actual page to the actual arrival of units. The problem with our 911 system is that you call a central hub in HQ which then takes all of the information. Then the call goes to the local FD/EMS, whicih then tones it out, then waits for vollies to show up, and then they respond. That can take awhile, especially with traffic lights and a lack of emergency vehicle certification for our personal vehicles. There's a light that I need to get through to get to the firehouse. It's a dangerous intersection, but there's also a traffic camera, so I can't even go through if it's 3AM and no one is on the road. If I hit a fresh red light it can take 2 minutes to cycle through, and that's one light alone. That doesn't add in traffic and congestion, other traffic lights, stop signs, and intersections.
I'm glad you apologized to the dispatcher as well, that was very sincere of you.
-
Permalink Reply by Gregory Borg on
-
First of all did anyone check and find out how long it really took for the FD to get on scene. Many times a homeowner will say it took 25 minutes when in reality it was about 8 or 9 minutes. Why all the chatter without the facts. How long did it take? What does the record say? Oh, and as for Heathers time line, we would get diciplined if we took that long, are you kidding me! The bell hits, you had better be bunkered and out the door in two minutes, maybe three!
-
Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
-
A fire department with one staffed driver, relying on on-duty cops to respond to the scene is not a full time fire department. It's a combi department, relying on what happens to be OTHER paid city employees to respond.
With no links and no factual data this article smells of, at best, monday morning quarterbacking and at worst, plain old motherf***ing. This quote from the OP makes me believe it's the latter, "Is it the 911 system or is it the lazy fd." Notice he's NOT asking if the FD is lazy, only WHETHER the issue is the 911 system or "...the lazy fd."
As to the "list" of ALL the things that take up time, I'd put as much credence into that list as I would sightings of the chupacabra. Ever notice how it's some gap-toothed barely literate redneck that is supposed to have killed one? Same with people who pull time-lines out of their ass, not a CLUE how things work.
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
