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How important is a 360 scene size-up
Here's the question I have for the experience firefighters and probies. How important is a 360 scene size-up?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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It very important. We don't do a traditional 360 per se though. Our company officer never walks around the building because it's nearly impossible in many parts of a large city. First due engine and truck will always take side A and give their size up. Instead of walking around the building, we rely on 2nd due engine and truck to give a report of the rear. Works just as good and is MUCH faster since everyone arrives on scene rather quickly.
The reason for not walking around and doing a 360 is the type of structures in our city. We have blocks upon blocks of row homes in some areas. It could take you a solid five minutes or so to talk to the rear. By then, the entire box assignment should already be on scene. Downtown we have large buildings that would take just as long. Another reason is that our officers don't assume command of fires. They make entry with the crew. We have two battalion chiefs respond on the initial box taking command from their buggy.
In a smaller city where response teams are longer, the officer takes command outside, and you actually have a house that's possible to walk around, a 360 is a must.
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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How important is putting your pants on before you go out of your house? It would cause you some embarrassment showing your short comings inside the tighty whities.
Not doing a thorough size up (360) will at the very least, cause embarrassment to the IC and department. At it's worse, gets your people killed. Sure, you might get lucky a few times and nothing happens, but all it takes is that one time for something to go wrong because a 360 wasn't done. The size up allows a plan to be formulated for the safe effective attack. The fire goes out, and Everyone Goes Home.
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Permalink Reply by captnjak on
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How do second due get to the rear?
We use adjoining building to get to the rear, or fire building if fire is on an upper floor, or give report from roof that will include what is seen in the rear.
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Alley ways. The alleys are all set up differently depending on the block. Second due engine's job is to always get back there though. Obviously the truck can't always make it back but they still need to ladder the rear.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Capcity,
What determines first due or second due? I get the aspect if a company is in quarters and responding, but what defines this if the actual first due company is out of quarters on another call, or out of district on another call, or even beat in, in their own district? How does first and second due thus determined?
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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That's the most memorable analogy I've read in a long time.
I shall retain the information I learned here as a result of your point.
Thanks, Oldman!
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We have AVL(automated vehicle locator) on all of our vehicles. So a computer system will pick up where you are. Many of our engine companies run 15-25 runs per tour. So there are plenty of times in which they get dispatched while on the air somewhere else. The one problem is that is goes by direct distance through the air rather than how it would be on the street. If someone comes available while the box is dispatched or they arrive on scene early, they can offer to bid on the box over the radio. This call is then made by the first battalion chief assigned to the box alarm.
Our box alarm is 5 engines, 2 trucks, 1 rescue squad, 2 battalion chiefs and an ambulance. It then is immediately upgraded with an additional engine, truck deputy chief, medic unit, ems supervisor and fire investigator if the first in company reports a working fire.
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We have very few alley ways. Makes laddering rear a big challenge. Getting a decent size ladder through, around or over an attached house is never easy. Standard equipment for roof firefighter is a life saving rope for situations where a ladder just won't be feasible.
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We don't have a lot of those problems with big buildings like you do. We have more high rises than most cities and one of the biggest downtowns in the country. However in DC there are height restrictions. So even though we have canyons of high rises downtown, none are higher than 13 stories which eliminates a lot of the problems a city like New York might have.
The rest of the city is filled with a ton of row homes and garden style apartments. Then parts of the city in either the very wealthy or very poor neighborhoods you have single family dwellings. Another popular one in the poor neighborhoods are the side by side homes. Two, two story row home type houses next to each other.
However in many of those cases, we do have the alley ways to help us out in getting to the rear.
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I certainly hope that people didn't find my response belittling. I think Jerry asked a very valid question. Sometimes, keeping things simple can drive home a point better than a very detailed or technical administrative response.
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