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Almost entire firefighting crew quits
April 4, 2012
The Canadian Press - Charlie Lake, British Columbia, Canada
All but two volnteer firefighters in the roughly 30-member department in Charlie Lake, have quit.
Firefighters in the northesten part of the province handed in their pagers to protest the hiring of a new chief and the tansfer of department control to the Peace River Regional District from the local fire protection society.
Trouble within the Charlie Lake department has smouldered for nearly two years, but flared when former Kimberley assistant fire chief Steve Munshaw took over April 1, to replace the long-time chief, who was not considered for the post.
Firefighters in the commuunity eight kilometers north of Fort St. John say they don't know or trust their new chief, a paid full-time staff member, or the recently hired assistant fire chief, who also receives a salary.
Officials with the regional district hope the dispute can be resolved but in the meantime, fire crews from Fort St. John or Taylor, about 25 kilometers further south, will respond to major incidents in Charlie Lake.
The regional district is also launching a recruitment drive in hopes of attracting new volunteer to the fire department.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by 55 TRUCK on
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There are a couple things that most of us must keep in mind. 1. We don't know the whole history behind this.
2. Canadian laws dealing with Vol. departments and for that matter all fire dept. are not the same as here in the states. Course Laws in the states differ from state to state etc.
Bottom line is there is alot we don't know. If we had more information we could give more informed responces.
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Permalink Reply by Thomas Churchey on
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How old are we again. We have two guys going at it on a forum board. Geez and they are talking about professionalism and whos better. O and if both of yall want to get in an argument with me then that just shows how immature you really are. O and another point if yall want to throw out years or whatever and what you have done. I am only 22 and seem to be alot more mature than you. Started volunteering when I was 16, turned 18 had FF 1 Apparatus Operator and HazMat Ao. I have been a volunteer, a career fireman and a contract fireman. My list of certs now include Firefighter 1 and 2 because I went to a full recruit school for 15 weeks. Did Hazmat All over again, ARFF, ARFF Driver, Mobile Water Supply and a few other certs not accredited but anyone. Thanks theres my opinion.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Listen Junior, I don't recall anyone asking you to get involved. On top of that the dispute you are whining about between Ben and I has been settled, I apologized and he accepted that. What point are you trying to make by stirring the pot about it?
Then you cry about us posting years in and then what do you do? Post your years in and your certs...Whoopdee freaking do.
Pssst...FF1, FF2, Certified Officer, Certified Instructor 2, Certified Fire Academy Instructor, Certified Haz Mat tech, Certifed Level A Haz Mat Instructor. Certified by Hurst as an Extrication Instructor. I am not sure why you wasted time taking non-certified ARFF classes. I am IFSAC Certified ARFF FF, ARFF DRIVER, FF2, and Apparatus Driver Operator. Associate Degree in Fire Science. EMT-Basic. More NFA course than I can list. More other classes fire, ems, and rescue related than I can list.
You sonny are a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black. Mature? Don't kid yourself. This DISCUSSION was between 2 old crusty dudes and didn't require the attention of a snot nosed little boy like you. The fact that it was resolved and you felt you had any business at all rejuvenating it shows you are little more than a troll.
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Permalink Reply by Bob Callahan on
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Here is an article from another source:
The Charlie Lake Fire Department's open house Sunday took a turn when almost all of the volunteer firefighters showed up and turned in their pagers. They said they're fed up with the lack of communication from the Peace River Regional District, and are worried about their safety working with a new Fire Chief and Assistant Fire Chief they don't know and trust.“We have dealt with this for the past year and a half… enough to know that even though you're the Chief, you're a puppet,” said one firefighter. “You don't have the power to make decisions. They want a yes guy; they want someone who's going to come in and do exactly what they say, and if you get any different, you're gone,” he added. “That's exactly what's happened with our old Chief.” Former Fire Chief Allan Pinkerton applied for the position, but was told he wasn't qualified.
Munshaw tried to reason with the crowd, asking them to give him one chance. “I can't help what's happened in the past, I cannot change what they've said,” he pleaded. “All I'm asking is for one simple opportunity for you and see who I am and what makes me work.”
Although several volunteers said it was too late for him too make a difference, some were willing to meet with Munshaw one-on-one. Munshaw says the talks went well and the men were open and understanding, and that several are willing to come in a talk with him again.
He believes he's been giving full reign to run the Fire Hall, and has been given all he needs to begin doing so, including recommendations from a report by consulting firm Dave Mitchell and Associates Ltd. Although his first day was a tough one, he's optimistic things will work out and understands that building the trust of the firefighters will take time.
“When I can walk in and these people are showing this kind of respect for their Chief - which is great – I hope to earn that same respect, and if I'm given the opportunity I think I can.”
Munshaw is in town until April 6, when he has to return home to finish his job as Assistant Fire Chief in Kimberley, B.C. And will return at the end of the month. As Charlie Lake now has only two firefighters, a mutual aid agreement is in place with the Fort St. John St. John and the Taylor Fire Departments to help out, as long as either Munshaw or Larson are in charge on the scene. If the situation is not resolved, it's possible that an external firefighting company will need to be hired to be on call temporarily.
Just like turning their pagers in, the volunteer firefighters say any decision they make in the future will be made as a group.
Judging from the article, it seems like the members beef is more with the fire district than the new Chief officers, though they do seem to have an issue with them simply walking inn the door and taking over rather than having a break-in period where they get to know each other and how the department operates. Remember, that in almost all cases a VFDs leaders rise from within and the members are very familiar with them when they become Chiefs, so this situation of having new unknown leaders thrust upon them is very unusual. I know of a couple of situations where this happened, and many of the volunteers reacted in the same way. Like it or not, VFDs, unlike career departments very rarely have new leaders come from the outside.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Feel free to learn the definition of a Straw Man logical fallacy. That's what you posted. There was exactly zero discussion of "whos better". (sic) The discussion was about the TLP, period.
Then you added another straw man argument about years. As Don said, don't kid yourself about your maturity. This isn't about you, although you inserted yourself into the conversation trying to make it about you.
Argument? I'm not going to argue with someone who just makes things up.
As for "years or whatever", since you brought it up, I had 21 years of fire and EMS experience when your dad came to see you at the hospital nursery on the day you were born.
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Permalink Reply by Russ on
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wow i was just passing by because i had time to read and this string looked interesting so i took the liberty of reading all of the posts up to now and all i can say is...that reply reminded me of a star trek "shut up wesley" moment
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i love watchin 2 old guys go at it
hey...i'm an old guy too, back to reading
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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I have to agree with Don. What a ridiculous post. haha
First if you're going to call someone immature for something, you don't follow that up with posting the exact same thing.
Second stop crying. It's a message board. It's for debating. Things will get heated. I have gotten into it before with Don and I get into all the time with Ben Waller. I actually disagree with a lot of things that he says but I still respect the hell out of him. I know he has a lot of experience and knows exactly what he's talking about. However we are firemen. In my opinion that automatically means we are stubborn and have no problem with a good debate/argument. Anyone who works in a real fire house know that. haha
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Don,
~ I may have 'implied', you might have 'inferred.' Who's right is subjective.
~ No argument here, I do believe that most VFDs don't measure up, based on any number of criteria; from initial 'hiring' procedures to ongoing training to qualifications for leadership.
~ Not to put too a fine a point on it but, you still only offered up your opinion (anecdotaly) about the 85 FDs in your area. Still not rising to the level of 'facts.'
~When a VFD will accept anyone regardless of ability, 'vote' them in and do any other number of things not typically found in a paid department then yes, I do see a strong social club mentality/component in them.
~The reasons you gave for the members quitting appear quite similar to mine so it's not that you disagreed with my opinion, you just didn't like the rest of my comments. I can give you that.
~ Part of why I see a social club mentality in VFDs is because they don't do background checks, don't require much of any training, let members pick and choose what they can/will do, et. al. Yes I may be painting with a broad brush but being a member here for 4 or 5 years I've read a lot of discussions, replies, complaints etc. Am I basing my opinions solely on facts? Yes, but only if I consider the aforementioned discussion, replies, complaints etc, as facts, which I happen to do.
~ I am NOT looking at anything wrong, I'm simply looking at it MY way. Therein lies your problem: you strongly disagree with anyone who doesn't see things YOUR way. It doesn't make you right or me wrong, but it does make you appear to be a bit thick headed (in a good way, I'm sure.) To the point, I don't see anything wrong with having amusements available in the fire house. But if these amusements (which is what I was alluding to) are made available to GET people into the fire department then it seems clear to me (to which you will typically disagree) that people are being 'bribed' into joining so that they will have a playhouse to go to rather than emphasizing the overarching goal/need, that of qualified, capable, firemen (sorry, I don't accept 'exterior' as a classification of fireman) and adequate fire protection services.
~ I don't have anything against awards, per se and you really shouldn't assume I'm so stupid as to not be aware that most FDs do award medals and honors for a variety of actions. They are always good to have in your jacket for promotions and the occasional safeguard when a person fecks up and that award may ameliorate any disciplinary action. But awards for most calls, most training, fund raising et. al. seem superfluous. Some people have a situation where they can make a lot of calls or training where others can't, and some people find fund raising to be right up their alley. Awards should be for performance of duty, and above and beyond the performance of duty. Showing up for meetings and drills shouldn't be awarded, isn't that part of their accepted commitment? (Frankly, I'd be happier with a raise.)
~ I see a difference between a canteen unit and a Ladies Auxiliary. The former having a specific need that can be run by people in the community that want to be helpful but to whom being a firefighters is beyond their interest. The latter is an anachronism from when females weren't allowed to be firefighters.
~ What I wrote was not an attack, simply your inference that it was so, which laid the groundwork for your comments. Neither were my comments baseless, only that you felt they didn't rise to the level of fact you deemed necessary. I never did, nor claimed to speak for the entire nation, those were your words, your inference and your setup so that you could rail on as you're wont to do.
You and I (as you pointed out some time back) agree more often than not on most things. I believe it was you that pointed out that if you don't like what someone wrote you should just move on. But you seldom do that and contrarily always have to point out that/where someone is wrong (in YOUR opinion).
Finally, my opinions (and they are presented as such whereas with facts I'll most often include links to my sources) are based on discussions in here over the years. Sadly the -SEARCH- function on this site is weak so it's always difficult to find specific things but I can assure that there have been many discussions where members have complained that; they have too many requirements already placed on them; they train once or twice a month; their leadership/officers are voted in; they have a bar in the fire house; there's nothing wrong with having 'exterior' firefighters, firefighters that don't climb ladders, etc; nepotism/favoritism/cronyism etc.; a lot of people who think that there is no difference between volunteer (in general) and paid firefighters. Do I hate or dismiss VFDs? Not at all, and I do know for a fact that there are a lot of quality, qualified, competent VFDs throughout the country that come close to, meet or exceed some paid departments. And they would be the gold standard against which all other VFDs should be judged. [And I would be willing to bet that most of these gold standard VFDs are fully funded through their community] But there are around 24,000 all volunteer FDs. Even IF 20% met the aforementioned gold standard (a generous guess at best) it leaves a lot of room for improvement for a lot of VFDs.
P.s., I don't know if 'junior' has responded yet but my first thought was he was referring to our conversation. Regardless, I think you drove the point home.
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Let's be clear, I know there are still social club VFDs that do not measure up, but as you have said not every career FD is a model of skill, proficiency, and professionalism.
While many VFDs still take anyone that walks through the door, I know of many VFDs, both of the POC FDs I am on in fact, that do an application process, with back ground checks, both criminal and driving. Wisconsin has a minimum training standard that MUST be met before a firefighter is allowed to do interior firefighting. Like both of the POC FDs I am on most set a standard higher than that, to include FF1, some FF2, and Driver Operator. Training twice a month may seem lax to you but I personally know of some career FDs that don't train anymore than that. So who is less prepared?
We absolutely agree on the nonsense of exterior firefighters. I see no point in wasting seats on a first out rig with people that can't go interior to save either victims or me if I get in trouble. ALL of the firefighters on both of my POC FDs are trained to the same minimum state standards, and thus qualified to go interior. We require more than that to include a minimum of FF1.
The truth is as you stated, there are some exemplary VFDs and some that leave much to be desired. The generally unspoken truth is the exact same thing can be said about career FDs.
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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Back in my day, one volunteered (no compensation whatsoever) to help our friends and neighbors. Our compensation was the "thank you for being there for me". NEVER EVER, would we even think of abandoning our neighbors. Lets face it, that's exactly what has happened. They turned their backs on their friends and neighbors.
"a mutual aid agreement is in place with the Fort St. John St. John and the Taylor Fire Departments to help out, as long as either Munshaw or Larson are in charge on the scene".
So, does this mean that if either of these 2 are NOT there, sorry about your luck, lost your life or property? Sux to be you! What a mutual aid agreement!
No one is ever completely comfortable with change, But it sounds to me that these people just need to "Cowboy the f*#& Up"! Pull up the big boy pants and work through their problems, and take care of business. But then I like to try to fix a problem, rather than trying to see who's manhood is bigger. Guess that's what happens when one gets old.
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So you volunteer until you die of old age? What if a family member gets sick? What if your employment changes? What if it just gets to the point where the hassle of doing it takes away the satisfaction of being a volunteer?
I understand the dedication you are talking about, because I consider myself very dedicated. Other than about a year off I have been a volunteer/Paid on Call firefighter since 1977. But honestly, my family comes first and when my then girlfriend, now wife, had breast cancer the VFD become a much lower priority. Honestly, if it had come to it I would have walked away from the VFD to care for my wife.
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