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Winter Responses - Maybe you have no choice other than surround and drown?
With winter responses, low staffing levels and budget cuts, should we surround and drown?
We have such a diverse group of folks here on the FFN, I wanted to ask a legitimate Southern California firefighter question...
For those who work places where there is snow and ice, what do you do when:
- Water you use to extinguish the fire turns to ice?
- Roads are too icy for an engine(s) to respond?
- Frozen hoselines?
- Frozen hydrants?
In the event of a fire, is there even a chance for doing any kind of arson investigation without having to wait for the spring thaw? Sure seems like the perfect crime if one wanted to be an arsonist and get away with something, knowing that there was no way for an investigator to see how the fire was started because of again, snow and ice.
So... how do cold weather departments deal with this added bonus? Just askin' from someone who has to drive for hours to even see snow. If maybe one piece of apparatus can arrive on scene, and maybe get water flowing, could it be that it is this kind of scenario (photo above with one firefighter) that most rural departments must use as a cold weather tactic?
CBz
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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I know cold my friend. Last night it got down to 42F. Had to crank up the thermostat to 70F and throw an extra blanket on the bed. It was so cold that we even had to light the gas logs in the zero clearance fireplace. Brrrr... The real tragedy early this morning was my banana tree leaves got burned from the cold. Winter is here.
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Permalink Reply by Bull on
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LMFAO !!!!! Down to 42, huh ??? Im glad you have that extra blanket, but sorry to hear about the banana tree. Stay safe and warm my friend....
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The good news out here is that there is never a bad weather day at the beach... In fact, bad weather means that we will get some sweet waves from a different direction. Normally, ocean swells are stymied by the Channel Islands, which are a group of islands off the shore of Santa Barbara. Winter storms come in and produce some incredible world class surfing and good times, even in the winter at the beach, which for us includes ocean rescue and response from beach launching points.
And as you know, life is a beach sometimes... even though that means our typical winter day is cloudy... Don't you just love this profession? :D
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Permalink Reply by Wade Seely on
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Like some of the others have said, drive slower, use chains, and hope that the plows have been out. We also have two 4x4 engines ( one for each station) that we run in nasty weather. I believe I have a picture of our 2007 Pierce in my profile the top of the front wheel wells is at eye level wich gives us plenty of ground clearance. Most of the amblulances in the state have the automatic tire chains which some like and some don't.
As far as fires we have the dry barrel hydrants that John talked about where the water is valved off below the frost line, or we use tenders and fold a tanks. Most of the time fires are treated the same as any other time of the year. One other thing to watch out for is snow piled on roof tops because it can add a lot of weight to weakend structures.
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this does not look fun at all... and looking at icicles on the back of the engine? yikes!
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Defensive attacks with a snowblower, maybe?
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Permalink Reply by Pararescue on
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Mike,
This might be where being a smaller town with one dispatch center is a HUGE bonus. In West Seneca on Buffalo's southern boarder, when a fire gets dispatched a snow plow in that area is sent to open up the road and clear the snow. Normally it's not an issue, but when it is, that's how we get down the streets. The hydrants really aren't a problem to get hook in. They get "dried out" if you will to the main valve, so about 10 feet of air sits. When you bleed the hydrant, you keep the water slowly moving out of the hydrant to keep it from freezing and that keeps the post freed up as well. I have seen Boston video's where flares are used to help free the iced up water, but I really don't know if that truly works. For the hand lines we gate them down and keep the cracked open on the lawn as not to ice up the walk or driveway, which is probably already covered in ice. The problem is after the fire, when the run off freezes in the house and you skate in and out of the house for overhaul.
The 1st engine gets 1 house past the fire building, leaving room for the truck. 2nd engine on the block backs down and reverse lays to the hydrant. If that one's frozen and you've beaten it up for a minute with nothing, continue down the road. But this in in a cold snap where the temps fall to 10 or lower.
Getting to the scene on an engine is normally not a problem in snow, the added weight gives us more traction.
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Now that's out of the box thinking Ben! It's that type of thinking that led to chickens being provided with respiratory protection to ensure organic free range happy chickens on the table...
And for some reason, Californian's are labelled at "out there"? Go figure...
-CBz
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Jason - The added difficulty of snow, ice and cold weather is an entirely different world and discipline within the fire service. Everything from reaching a patient in a house, and getting them transported to the back of the ambulance alone seems like it could be a real chore. Vehicles over the side, difficult as is, but add in cold with technical rope work and I could see how that in itself could be self limiting, yet I never have really heard much about it, nor have I seen a lot of forum posts focusing on this aspect of firefighting.
I'd like to ask readers, posters, firefighters to post some photographs depicting you, doing your job, but in extreme climatic conditions. Such as...
I did run across a great checklist for winter operations...
Important Cold Weather Tips
Fighting fires in cold weather isn't only uncomfortable for front line personnel, it's damaging to equipment as well. Here are some tips from departments around the country that may prove useful during cold weather incidents in your area:- Avoid coming up DRY by initiating a hydrant "Pump-Out" plan
- Apparatus maintenance is crucial! Make sure that tire chains or other traction devices are available for all first-in units
- Develop a "contingency plan" with the authority or agency responsible for road maintenance and service
- Develop SOP's regarding "dry-pump" vs. "wet-pump" operations. Things to consider are response time, pump design and normal ambient temperature in the station.
- Carry a supply of salt, sand or oil-dry to enhance footing and reduce the possibility of falls.
- During heavy snowfalls, apparatus may be forced to operate "away" from the fire building.
Extra lengths of attack line should be added to preconnects to compensate for the longer and indirect lays. - Following knockdown, when handlines are not being used, partially opened control valves will allow water to flow and prevent freezing.
- Make sure that all waterways for monitors or deck pipes are dry, to avoid any freezing or clogging effects resulting from ice or slush.
- Follow the manufacturer's recommendations regarding the cold weather use of SCBA. Don't allow water to seep into regulators or emission valves.
- And finally, ensure that extra turnout gear is available, especially gloves. It's recommended that personnel wear layered clothing, rather than bulky articles.
The highlighted text above are items that I found to be unique for cold weather departments and unfamiliar to myself, most likely because my career did not include cold weather response. With that said, and assuming that this information is current and hit's all the key points, I have to ask what is a "Pump-Out" plan?
-CBz
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Pump out plan: Checking hydrants to ensure that they have drained completely to the valve in the bottom of the hydrant. Wet barrel hydrants have weep holes that are exposed when the hydrant is shut off to allow the hydrant to fully drain. However sometimes these weep holes get clogged and do not allow the hydrant to drain. Either the FD or the water department checks the hydrants and pumps that remaining water out before the temperature gets below freezing. The pumping is usually done with a little 110 volt pump about the size of a starter motor.
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Mike,
The simple answer is we deal with it. It is as normal to us here in the snow belt to have winter fires as it is for you to have thousands of acres of wildland fires fed by Santa Anna winds in temoeratures exceeding 90 degrees.
Okay for your first set of questions:
Water you use to extinguish the fire turns to ice?
This question can be taken 2 ways, or maybe 3.
1) The water we actually applied turns to ice. We can salt and/or sand on the rig to improve traction.
2) Tankered water freezes in the foldatank. Never seen this happen during primary ops since water is always moving in and out of the foldatank. I have seen parts skim over with ice during latter stages of the fire such as overhaul.
3) The draft point (river, lake, pond, stream) being frozen solid. Many FDs up here carry ice augers like ice fishermen use to drill a hole through the ice for drafting. Some will cut a hole with a chain saw.
Roads are too icy for engines to respond?
Never happens. We are ALWAYS coming, it just may take us a hell of a lot longer to get there.
Frozens hoselines?
We never fully shut a hoseline down. There is always water moving to keep it from freezing. If it does freeze we leave it lay and pull another line and leave the nozzle open even more to keep more water moving.
Frozen hydrants?
The major reason hydrants are checked and pumped if necessary is to prevent this. If we find a frozen hydrant we go to another hydrant or call for the next due to supply us.
As for the picture you posted, if that little bit of snow they have there, a dusting really, interfered with ops, all I can do is shake my head. We had more snow that that last week here already. Fighting fire in the snow is like everything else we face as firefighters, just another obstacle or hindrance or pain in the ass we must overcome...and we do, quite successfully most of the time.
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