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Winter Responses - Maybe you have no choice other than surround and drown?
With winter responses, low staffing levels and budget cuts, should we surround and drown?
We have such a diverse group of folks here on the FFN, I wanted to ask a legitimate Southern California firefighter question...
For those who work places where there is snow and ice, what do you do when:
- Water you use to extinguish the fire turns to ice?
- Roads are too icy for an engine(s) to respond?
- Frozen hoselines?
- Frozen hydrants?
In the event of a fire, is there even a chance for doing any kind of arson investigation without having to wait for the spring thaw? Sure seems like the perfect crime if one wanted to be an arsonist and get away with something, knowing that there was no way for an investigator to see how the fire was started because of again, snow and ice.
So... how do cold weather departments deal with this added bonus? Just askin' from someone who has to drive for hours to even see snow. If maybe one piece of apparatus can arrive on scene, and maybe get water flowing, could it be that it is this kind of scenario (photo above with one firefighter) that most rural departments must use as a cold weather tactic?
CBz
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Well Mike, for the most simplistic of answers, those of us who do have to work in the snow and freezing conditions plan accordinly.
■Water you use to extinguish the fire turns to ice?
Ice CAN be an issue on the fireground, but we carry sand in all the pumps and some guys do have some ice grips they put on their boots. With ice, you just try to slow down a bit and be more careful, but it really doesn't change techniques. Besides, ice is more of the hazard when on pavement, if operating in a snowy yard or even on snow, your footing tends to be better.
■Roads are too icy for an engine(s) to respond?Doesn't really happen. As with fire operations, communities in snow worlds also plan for such circumstances and will plow and sand/salt the roads. Many depts, like us, will also have a set of chains that can be put on the drive wheels to better traction. If there is a storm forcasted, such measures will be put in place. Otherwise a response is just like any other, drive with Due Regard, slow down, and get there safe. Something easy to remember is you are no good to anybody if you don't even make it to the scene.
Also, icy roads tend not to be as big of a factor as snow accumulation. We have had a few snowstorms dropping a foot or more of snow which makes responses more difficult, especially on sidestreets that haven't been plowed. In some cases, we can have a plow closeby divert to clear a path for responding rigs, we also have a couple dept pickups with plows on that may go on the response to clear a path, or in some cases like EMS, the ambulance may park on a more cleared out block and crews will hoof it in. We also carry shovels on all pumps and for snowed in driveways or walks, a couple guys will work to clear a path for the cot while other members are doing pt care. Shovels also help for those buried hydrants that some people don't clear, forget to clear, or plain don't care to clear.
■Frozen hoselines?Crews know to keep the nozzle cracked open and the pump operator keeps a continuos flow. Moving water doesn't freeze up, so you still have the line if needed. The jackets can freeze and can be a bit of a pain to maneuver, but you still have water. Now cleanup is a bit different of a story, you pile the used hose up and bring it back to the station for thawing.
■Frozen hydrants?See, in the snow world we have what is called a dry barrel hydrant, whereas you have wet barrel hydrants. The wet barrell, the outlets have their own valve to open and water is at that source. Dry barrell, the only way to get water is to open the valve at the top of the hydrant. Once the valve is open, then water is at all outlets, so in several places, you see a 2 1/2" gate valve on a side outlet if you have the steamer connection utilized. This way you can attach a 2 1/2" hose for supplemental supply if needed, without having to shut down the entire hydrant.
When shutting the hydrant down, you give it some time to let the water drain. You can tell if it is still draining by putting your hand to an outlet and you can feel a vaccuum. You want to be sure the water is drained before placing the last cap back on to prevent a hydrant from freezing. Most hydrants do not have an issue with freezing, but there is the occasional one that does. If coming across a frozen hydrant, you just catch a different one.
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Permalink Reply by Ron King (Fire Chief) on
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Mike, Sometimes the surround and drown can be a good answer in any season of the year! Safety First.
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Permalink Reply by big o on
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lets see most of our our winter operations here in the backwoods of Indiana are are the same as MR. Crabbe with a few exceptions:
We don't Chain our trucks, cant afford them and most of our roads are gravel so ice conditions are not to much of a problem slow down and take your time snow never really a problem seems to provide a little more traction if its on top of the ice
as far as medical response we are BLS non transport so we have a 4x4 suburban for response if the medics cant get close enough our sheriffs department has a couple of pick ups they will send to plow and salt the roads to get them in, if not they "commandeer" our truck and move the patient to theirs that way if feasible, if not they or patient is to critical they can call for a bird closets one is only 15 minutes away from initial call, if they cant fly we "find a way" to get the patient to the truck
Hydrants what are those again? Only have about 7 in our 62 sqm response area so once again we usually ask the sheriffs department to send there pickups to salt and plow for the tanker/tender shuttle last year we had a house fire in the middle of an ice storm and those guys were great they were there and salting before the second engine was on scene. They even grabbed chainsaws and started cutting low hanging branches so we could get rigs closer to the house instead of having to do multiple 500' 2 1/2 lays to the house
we try to not practice the surround and drown method because we have a great mutual aid system based on MABAS but it happens if so then so be it, we cant save them all with the resources we have on hand
as far as the picture posted,and what it shows me, Capt that is our initial attack to try and get a quick knock down and hold a fire in check until we get enough people on scene to do an interior attack, believe me i thought it was a bad tactics when i moved to this department compared to where i was previously but since i have been here its been used about 10 times half of those by me and it is a great tactic for when you only have a thousand gallons of water and 1 or 2 firefighters those first 5 - 10 minutes before the next rig gets there with more water and people
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Permalink Reply by Bull on
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John did an excellent job at explaining your questions. Thats pretty much how we do things up here in the northwoods of Wi.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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Nice synopsis explaining your very different world. Thank for putting in the time to pen the info.
-Mike
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Permalink Reply by Nathan Henderson on
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Central washington cascades here. The only thing we have to deal with that John didn't mention are the hydrants getting buried by the plows though our city crew has gotten better with cleaning out around them and we keep up on what they don't get. Other than that it's pretty much the same thing here. We have chains for everything except our rescue and brush truck which are both 4x4's. There aren't alot of hills in our town but we did just annex a large portion of the ridge surroundin town which only has a couple houses on it now that are reasonable to access and we are working to purchase an engine with 4x4 capability to help with that. We also get a great response from our volunteers and have good response times so we are able to have a good attack on most structure fires that we are called to.
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I just heard about MABAS last week, talking to Don C. from Wisconsin. It sounds to me like MABAS is very much like the mutual aid agreements between fire departments in the western states and something that none of us can live without. No one can do it by themselves. The only difference (I think?) is that MABAS seems to involve just volunteer departments?
As far as the photo, which was the only one I found depicting surround and drown in a snow environment, I found it really interesting to hear your honest perspective on what the photo shows. Totally makes sense to me. Do what you can until other resources can arrive. I can't think of anything more stressful at the moment than being a volunteer firefighter, arriving by yourself at a fully involved structure, and having to do whatever you can before other resources and personnel arrive.
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How does your dept like its 4x4 engine? We are looking to purchase one, probably through sutphen and i'm wondering if there are any differences to expect from a standard engine.
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The only difference (I think?) is that MABAS seems to involve just volunteer departments?
No, MABAS is mutual aid agreements.....Mutual Aid Box Alarm System......and does also involve career depts as well.
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Bull - Yes, John did and outstanding job explaining snow ops. It was almost like being there for me. I could feel it... Well, kind of... This is the only snow I usually see or deal with, on the TV...
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Permalink Reply by Chief Harold Williamson on
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Mike very good discussion topic. Everyone that commented explained it all very well thats the way we do it here in Tn with the exception of some very Steep hills. We also have the city come out or the county to plow and salt on calls and we use chains and cables on our trucks. If we can not get close enough we just have to lay the extra line along with relay pumping.
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