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NYPD ESU trying to be FDNY kills accident vic.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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The video and the tactics displayed are hard to watch.... What I am wondering is how anyone can know who killed this victim? This guy was involved in a motorcycle verse car; MVC, add in he was then run over and pinned underneath? Now I could easily speculate that he had minor injuries while having a 4000 lb car on top of him or then again he could have suffered irreversible traumatic injuries that occurred before 911 was ever called. I have worked trauma's where the victim was alert and talking but later died... so I will have to wait to comment on who killed this poor victim after the official investigation is completed, and refuse to comment on a "trial by i-phone".
I do agree with many of you that alot of things could have been done differently.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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I agree, but the bystander comments to the NY Post that the victim was moaning until ESU dropped the car on him, and immediately became unresponsive and silent at that point is likely going to impress the inevitable jury.
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Permalink Reply by Michael McCarthy on
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Basically it does come down to who gets the glory and I have seen both sides act carelessly at calls. I have seen ESU use there truck to stabalize the overturned car against a tree while FD was attempting to stabilize it themselves and I have seen FD go over and turn off ESU's hurst tool while they were operating on a car. So the finger pointing goes both ways. And as basically someone said before--- whats the glory in recovering a corpse. This incident is absolutley ESU's fault but for anyone to say that FDNY hasnt done their share would be short sighted. Not condoning anyones actions on this but that is unfortunately the fight of the "Battle of the Badges" for YEARS and I dont see it coming to a end anytime soon.
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Permalink Reply by Keith A. Morrone on
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NO, If it's not Burning NYPD ESU have comand of a MVA.. why that is ????? but it is. the problem is ESU thinks its GOD. they ned to wake up and let every one help out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Permalink Reply by Russ on
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to understand this incident you have to understand the relationship between the FDNY and the NYPD.
NYPD's ESU was orginized in the 1920's and if you want to know more ya gotta go to wikipedia. The short story is NYC is too big to have a single dedicated SWAT team so they have ESU for the special police assignments that are suited for the fire department but best handeled by the cops such as jumpers, baracaded subjects threatening to burn/blow up a building that kind of thing.
Car accidents is where the rub begins
When the hurst tool came out in the 70's a kind of "war" began. The fire department got them then ESU got them too.
Then things began to get interesting. Car accidents with entrapment (pin jobs to the NYPD) began it all.
Car accidents are usually the job of the police (for the accident) and the fire department for extrication or fire and EMS(which was a stand alone agency back then) for patient care
This was also the time i began to buff the FDNY and the PD...LET THE GAMES BEGIN.
Say i hear an accident on the long island expressway in queens with entrapment on the scanner. RESCUE 4 is dispatched and on the ESU frequency ESU is notified. Now EMS which is supposoed to be neutral has a police walkie and has been notified by the local precint (bypassing their dispatch) and everyone is on the way.
RESCUE 4 and ESU arrive about the same time. The "E-MEN of the ESU are using their hurst on the passinger door and RESCUE 4 is on the drivers door.
The goal is whoever gets to the patient first will control the scene (and win nanny nanny boo boo prividlidges)
I have personally seen firefighters go to the cops power unit and shut it off and vice versa. In a worse case sceneraio a spark plug wire was cut. (that was stopped pretty quick after only one incident that i've seen it was going too far) but for a while car accidents had become a contact sport.
It was fun to watch. If you can find an old program called "on scene emergency response" they did an NYPD episode (i have it on tape) you'll see it for yourself.
Alot of it has stopped post 9-11 (i have been told that it's more of a friendly rivaly now) but i know that there has been occasional flareups as in when ESU wanted to buy a tower ladder. I heard that the FDNY blocked the purchase citing "turf guarding" and an unclear "city law" that it was against the law for a cop to operate fire appratus. But pictures of the finished product went out on the web (somebody sent me the pictures) it all ended up being a big joke."photoshop is a dangerous thing". i heard the FDNY threated any manifacturer who sold the NYPD a tower ladder to expect to never have another FDNY account ever!
NYPD ESU still calls the fd the red menace and the firefighters call the call the cops the blue plague. today i'm, sure its friendly ribbing.
As for this incident. If you look at how the're equipped the two man response trucks probibly dont carry cribbing, the large ESU trucks might but i'm not 100% sure. It's a good bet that FDNY rescue is better equipped because they have the ability to carry it. NYPD ESU is more suited for police situations than rescue.
the NYPD and FDNY rescue are both fine outfits and i respect them both because i have friends in both. each has things they are good at
i did enjoy the war years though
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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• how are u gonna get O2 on a guy under a car, wearing a full helmet
You can use a nasal canula to at least try and compensate for the obvious hypovolemic shock issues that occur when the weight is lifted off the patient. It's a minimal attempt but at least you are not standing around, watching this person die, all by himself. I find this a very cold hearted and unprofessional / uncaring way to handle an injured victim.
• thats why the have amblances...
I understand BLS Engine's, been there done that. How about just taking the time to take a pulse, respiration rate, talk to the victim and stay with the victim until a more advanced level of EMS can be provided. Is this the norm for FDNY? I just can't picture this cold of an attitude being the norm anywhere. I saw no one provide EMS of any kind on the video until the patient was put on backboard and then lifted on a gurney. Even then, I can't say much occurred other than load and go. When a victim is under a car, this is not the place for EMS folks who are not dressed for the party. This period of time between when the victim is being evaluated, and then rescued where EMS personnel can do their job means that someone has to step up to the plate and at least do the basics. This is not the case here. If it was your son, and you saw him pinned under a car, would you watch from a distance, not engaging in anyway? So... not everyone treats victims as if they were one of their own? Cold...
• An pt. advocate wount stop the adrenaline rush cops at all.
I can't picture the cops purposely injuring a firefighter if they are right there with the patient. Had this been the case and the firefighter observed that no cribbing was in place in case of Hurst Tool failure, I believe before they got too far, something would be said and again, actually using firefighters who can be seen on the video standing around in the background to be there to provide cribbing and support. But nooooo... all the firefighters for those first critical moments were being indecisive, allowing the NYPD to go to work. I also find it hard to believe that engine companies don't train for this type of incident, expecting to have no or long delays for a rescue company which in the video, never showed up. This smacks of the "not my job" mentality. Thinking more about saving this kids life verses who gets the glory is nonsense.
• Thats not the case with the city! they have approx. 5k rigs FDNY or private hosp. rigs even vol. paid. That is why the fire department does only minimal basic ems work an dont have all the equipment on there trucks an the cops dont have that stuff eighter.
The point here that I am stressing is that regardless of how many ambulances are available, when you are dealing with a rescue situation, (and having someone pinned under a car pretty much meets the definition), EMS folks are in the way. This is where we work, and we should do so as a team. As hard as it might be to grasp, some folks just have to multi-task when dealing with this type of injury because you, the firefighter, are the one dressed for the party in the right PPE, not the EMS people.
This kid never had a chance... What a shame.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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Who gives a rats arse who they are?
The reality is, any rescue provider could have made the same mistake.
Sure, it's a mistake that should never have happened if a better focus was on scene safety, but it happened.
We ALL need to learn from it, and not turn this into a cop vs FF thread- it's a waste of time that achieves nothing....
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• But they also stress that it should be the last resort if other options fail or cant be dont in a timely manner.
This was never even close to a last resort situation. The firefighters using the cribbing failed to not only ensure that cribbing was used in conjunction with the JAWS usage but also with the air bags.
Is it not the normal procedure to first use wood cribbing to elevate the rescue air bag to maximize the lifting efficiency instead of wasting those precious inches on the open space? I can see why the NYPD feels a need to get involved if the fire department doesn't come fully prepared to deal with the incident, and yes, even an engine company.
If you have air bags, it's a given that you are also going to have at a minimum, a milk crate filled with homemade 4x4's, 2x4's and wedges. Holes are drilled at the ends of the cribbing pieces to enable grabbing a bunch of them and transporting them to the scene. Coming to the party only partly prepared is an invitation for someone else to crash the party. There is an obvious open invite to any party the NYPD wants to attend because from what can be seen on the video isn't too complimentary for the firefighters, their department or their company officers.
To even have a rumor that cops and firefighters are fighting for glory and recognition may prove to be a legal nightmare for first responders and a plethora of opportunity for the lawyers.
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Oh i know, ive taken the class. But they also stress that it should be the last resort if other options fail or cant be dont in a timely manner.
Whoever says the jaws used in this manner is a last resort, is plain wrong!The jaws are a very reasonable and reliable option to consider in the suite of equipment carried on many rescue rigs.
The reality is, jaws are no more or less likely to fail than airbags, hand-operated-hydraulics, jacks and many other tools we could consider for this type of event.
Thomas, you obviosuly have an axe to grind. I'd suggest you've made your point, multiple times. Stop trying to inflame the learnings from this tragic and preventable incident....
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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I can see why the NYPD feels a need to get involved if the fire department doesn't come fully prepared to deal with the incident, and yes, even an engine company.
While I can't speak on the operations and equipment cache of either entity, I disagree with such a sentiment that another agency needs to get involved. A big disparity with such an assessment is the utter lack of PPE by the PD in this case, limited equipment is one thing, but if doing such a rescue, there should be at least PPE in place, so along those lines alone the FD would be considered more ready in this case.
The other beef of the issue is there are other videos and examples of the FDNY operating on MVAs solely on their own without PD showing up to do extrication, so it comes to question as to where you are coming from with your comment here, Mike?
Coming to the party only partly prepared is an invitation for someone else to crash the party
Nobody should be "crashing" any scene, that is freelancing and we can see the results of freelancing. In this case alone there appears to be a lack of a command presence because it appears the two agencies are working their own course vs working together. I don't agree with this statement because it seems to imply freelancing.
There is an obvious open invite to any party the NYPD wants to attend because from what can be seen on the video isn't too complimentary for the firefighters, their department or their company officers.
How so?
To even have a rumor that cops and firefighters are fighting for glory and recognition may prove to be a legal nightmare for first responders and a plethora of opportunity for the lawyers.
I would say these are pretty strong rumors then because I have heard and read about such disparities and lack of interoperability among these two agencies for a long time. Up to this point I haven't heard or known about an incident outcome like this one, especially in the world of everyone having camera and videos instantly hitting the information superhighway.
Now I saw the video on Statter and I do see the issues as mentioned, but I definately noticed a lack of PPE on the PD and it was a PD officer using the jaws as a jack, which is not correct. I do agree with the other FF's who say such scenes should be a FD response and leave the PD out of it. This also does lead to the question of having an ESU for PD, but even if necessary for jumpers, SWAT etc as alluded to before, the issue of extrication here should seriously be looked at. The aspect of combining police and fire together really is not the best answer with two completely different job aspects.
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Where I am coming from on this one is based on watching the Statter911 video. I have not seen or read anything else about NYPD and the FD besides this incident.
My chief concern here is that everyone is wrapped up on who is using emergency equipment and performing the rescue, but no one is concerned with the victim. Before a load is moved off of someone, did it occur to anyone that this alone could have been the cause of death, and to prevent it, before moving a heavy object off of someone, IV's are established and pre-hospital care is initiated.
I was not there but have had enough experience throughout the years with successful outcomes combining the use of this training information that I learned in paramedic school. Crush syndrome patients are pretty much doomed but you can do things to improve their chances. This is not one of those rush situations.
I would expect a FD company officer with a cool head and thought process to be in charge at these incidents, utilizing available resources to the fullest extent, and yes, this would include the NYPD. Making decisions whether or not it's appropriate to have these guys responded I would think would be above our pay grades so to speak. It sounds like these guys are there regardless, so why not go with it and use them to your advantage? Key point here is using ICS and having the PD be a functional rescue group. Preplan the stuff.
I didn't see the FD with anything other than an airbag using a system off of an engine verses a portable bottle where you can actually control the rate of fill. What I did see was a lot of guys standing around, watching.
I question the lack of wood cribbing to raise the bag. This rendered the evolution worthless. The bag was expanding but not touching the vehicle soon enough to work to its designed capacity and effectiveness. This is what created the opportunity for the NYPD to swoop in and start using their JAWS, which as previously identified, is a last ditch attempt that should not be used unless it's just that, a last minute no other option scenario. This was not the case here and never should be. Using wood cribbing and airbags works and if you have all hands jump it, can be done quickly and effectively. I did not see the FD jump in and help out here.
Basic airbag usage includes using something under the airbag to protect the surface as well as elevate the bag as close as possible to the bottom of the vehicle. Had this been done right the first time, the need for the JAWS would be moot.
Finally, my biggest concern here John is the lack of patient care. There is so much that could have been done from baseline vital signs to basic oxygen therapy. Instead, the victim was basically ignored. I find this wrong and find it confusing that there would be this type of duplication of service if it wasn't needed in the first place.
My focus on this post again is not to say the PD is better or worse than we are, even though I think we are. Different mind sets, different culture and different public expectations and trust issues illustrate this point very well.
I want to draw attention to three things here John.
1. If you are using airbags, use them correctly and use cribbing to maximize the lift.
2. Assign a patient man to the victim who will act at a patient advocate when they can't. This could include protecting there neck from moving any more, checking for a pulse or just talking to the victim to assure him that you are doing everything possible. We, the fire service are their for the people we serve, and ignoring a victim under a vehicle is not the right direction for folks to follow.
3. Use and understand ICS. The fact that there are more than one agency on scene dictates that a chief officer be present. Where was this person? Engine company folks should be able to focus on doing a rescue, not politics.
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For those reading this post, and not having the resources to understand how to successfully run a motor vehicle accident, please refer to: IAFF and NFPA Firefighter Skills Vehicle Rescue and Extrication
Please note the part about ALWAYS using cribbing with the airbags...
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