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But The 2-1/2 Is Soooooo Hard to Move...
The average complaint about the big line is that it takes a lot to advance it.
The 2 1/2-inch hoseline is plagued by myths that cause our reluctance to use it, even at times when it is needed most. The most common are that it is too heavy to advance aggressively and that it requires more manpower than that used to advance a 1 3/4- or 1 1/2-inch handline.
It is correct that the big line will not be as quickly stretched and advanced as its smaller brothers, but if you stop for a moment and consider the type of fires and settings that the 2 1/2-inch hoseline faces, then you can begin to understand that speed is not so much a requirement. Take a look at the mnemonic you should be using for deciding when to pull the big line:
ADULTS
A = Advanced Fire
D = Defensive Operations
U = Unknown Location (of the fire; smoke pushing from every crack but we can't locate the seat)
L = Large Structures
T = Tons of Water
S - Standpipe System
Looking at these we don't see any that really require the immediate speed in stretch and advance that the smaller lines do. We are going to be quick as we can when pulling the 2 1/2-inch hoseline, but our mindset should be different. When you respond to a private dwelling fire, your hippocampus (part of the brain that deals with short- and long-term memory) is already engaged in recalling past experiences to match with the yet unseen, as you arrive. Experience combined with education teaches you that successful extinguishment of the fire will be the result of a fast stretch and knockdown. Once the parking brake is set you act almost without thinking.
But look where and how ADULTS is used.
When you respond to the Home Depot for a working fire, or the whatever-teenth floor of a high-rise, your immediate thoughts shouldn't be the quick stretch but whether or not you are bringing the right gun to the fight. It may be a fire in a rear storage room, or a kitchen fire on the 27th floor; either one, you are not going to be as quick as if you are running the 150' preconnect. You will be walking stairs, looking for the straightest path, extending a line or still looking for the fire. Combine this with the fact that the fire is growing and you should see the need for the 2 1/2.
"But I don't have the initial staffing to run the 2 1/2."
I disagree. I've been on fires where three-men engine companies have run the big line successfully and managed to make a good knockdown as other companies arrived. The reason for their success is that they trained on the 2 1/2-inch hoseline with their 'real world' staffing. It's easy for a department to say they drill on using the big line, but that is usually a whole department drill where they put six members on the line. Real world training uses real world staffing. Education should be open to all, but to stress the fact that minimum staffing can run the big line, the drill must be done with same minimum staffing.
The Nozzle Forward has two good videos showing the proper teamwork and movement among the lineman and backup man, using the 2 1/2-inch hoseline. Take a look at them, share them with others in your department and drill on stretching and advancing the 2 1/2 with real world staffing. Rotate members, three or four at a time, in simple evolutions and then repeat to gain speed in movements.
ADULTS anyone?
Hotel under construction. (Brian Slattery photo)
Commercial row with apartments above (David Coleman photo)
Private dwelling. (author's collection)
Photos courtesy of author and FITHP.net with permission.
Bill Carey is the Online News/Blog Manager for Elsevier Public Safety and a former Prince George's County (MD) volunteer fire officer.
Read more of Backstep Firefighter and others at FireEMSBlogs.com.
The 2 1/2-inch hoseline is plagued by myths that cause our reluctance to use it, even at times when it is needed most. The most common are that it is too heavy to advance aggressively and that it requires more manpower than that used to advance a 1 3/4- or 1 1/2-inch handline.
It is correct that the big line will not be as quickly stretched and advanced as its smaller brothers, but if you stop for a moment and consider the type of fires and settings that the 2 1/2-inch hoseline faces, then you can begin to understand that speed is not so much a requirement. Take a look at the mnemonic you should be using for deciding when to pull the big line:
ADULTS
A = Advanced Fire
D = Defensive Operations
U = Unknown Location (of the fire; smoke pushing from every crack but we can't locate the seat)
L = Large Structures
T = Tons of Water
S - Standpipe System
Looking at these we don't see any that really require the immediate speed in stretch and advance that the smaller lines do. We are going to be quick as we can when pulling the 2 1/2-inch hoseline, but our mindset should be different. When you respond to a private dwelling fire, your hippocampus (part of the brain that deals with short- and long-term memory) is already engaged in recalling past experiences to match with the yet unseen, as you arrive. Experience combined with education teaches you that successful extinguishment of the fire will be the result of a fast stretch and knockdown. Once the parking brake is set you act almost without thinking.
But look where and how ADULTS is used.
When you respond to the Home Depot for a working fire, or the whatever-teenth floor of a high-rise, your immediate thoughts shouldn't be the quick stretch but whether or not you are bringing the right gun to the fight. It may be a fire in a rear storage room, or a kitchen fire on the 27th floor; either one, you are not going to be as quick as if you are running the 150' preconnect. You will be walking stairs, looking for the straightest path, extending a line or still looking for the fire. Combine this with the fact that the fire is growing and you should see the need for the 2 1/2.
"But I don't have the initial staffing to run the 2 1/2."
I disagree. I've been on fires where three-men engine companies have run the big line successfully and managed to make a good knockdown as other companies arrived. The reason for their success is that they trained on the 2 1/2-inch hoseline with their 'real world' staffing. It's easy for a department to say they drill on using the big line, but that is usually a whole department drill where they put six members on the line. Real world training uses real world staffing. Education should be open to all, but to stress the fact that minimum staffing can run the big line, the drill must be done with same minimum staffing.
The Nozzle Forward has two good videos showing the proper teamwork and movement among the lineman and backup man, using the 2 1/2-inch hoseline. Take a look at them, share them with others in your department and drill on stretching and advancing the 2 1/2 with real world staffing. Rotate members, three or four at a time, in simple evolutions and then repeat to gain speed in movements.
ADULTS anyone?
Hotel under construction. (Brian Slattery photo)
Commercial row with apartments above (David Coleman photo)
Private dwelling. (author's collection)
Photos courtesy of author and FITHP.net with permission.
Bill Carey is the Online News/Blog Manager for Elsevier Public Safety and a former Prince George's County (MD) volunteer fire officer.
Read more of Backstep Firefighter and others at FireEMSBlogs.com.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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1st Strike Technologies - Heavy Attack 1.75
Capable of 250 gpm at 50 psi. Nozzle Pressure through 1 ¾" hose
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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No intent on insulting anyone. I enjoyed the picture of that fancy nozzle as well. Actually met Kirk, and had him do his presentation. Confer with him also. Even purchased that there funny looking thing, and getting more. My point about the 1.75' and the 1.5" hose is the history behind it. We integrated here during the early 80's.
There are many misconceptions about flow rates, hose, nozzles, and pressure. TRAINING goes a loooong way. Pre-connected lines, static-loads, and stand-pipe or hose packs...bundles...what-ever you want to call them should provide the engine company with OPTIONS. Lack of strength, ability to handle, ability to stretch seem to come down TRAINING, education...drilling. Except maybe the lack of strength. That is another personal issue with me. Lacking the strength to use the tools of the trade indicates you may be in the wrong business. But I understand the concept that some think it is a right, and everyone and anyone can be a fireman. I'm just sayin'. If you can't stretch or advance a 2.5" hose-line what are you going to do when you need to throw a 24' alone, or pluck someone from a window, or make a "grab" when your alone?
Of course we can't do it all, I understand that. But the fact of the matter is that MOST engines companies carry 2.5" hose, so it makes sense to train and be capable of using it.
Stretching a 2.5" up the stairs with a crew of 2? No, not an ideal situation. And most likely it isn't going to happen, at least quickly. But there ARE times when it IS indicated...ground floor, commerical occupancy, etc.
Look all I was getting at is that the 1.75" has taken the place of the 2.5" for many departments when it is clearly not going to do anything but get vaporized. The big line stays on the engine and the smaller line goes up against heavy, or full involvement, and damn if it burns down! In the end, I understand there are alternatives, and differences, and preferences. I have mine. You have yours. But I certainly didn't mean to offend your little...hoseline.
Opening the bale all the way? Wasn't a problem with us. Found something else though...
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Jeff,
One of the issues is that we used to have 8 or 10 firefighters stretching a single 2.5 inch line - at least in a couple of the places I worked.
Even for a straight stretch to a 1st floor commercial fire 10 feet from the street, we never had less than 4.
The strength issue isn't just individual strength, it's the cumulative strength of the total number of available firefighters to make the stretch.
The bottom line is that no matter how strong the individual firefighters may be, if you don't have enought firefighters, it's going to impair your ability to make a 2-1/2 stretch in anything like a timely manner.
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Permalink Reply by Marc Hansen on
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The 2.5 has pretty much been done away with due to a lack of manpower. 20 years ago a structure fire would bring about 100 firefighters from my department and 3 mutual aid companies. We used the 2.5 an awful lot then. A structure fire in the evening now with those same 4 departments might bring a total of 30 today counting the fire police that direct traffic. We dont use the 2.5 so much any more. While I can only speak to the volunteer departments I have been with, I'm pretty sure that most paid departments aren't staffed at the level they were 20 years ago both in manpower and available apparatus. If I remember right that was one of the things that led to every one switching to 1.75: more water less manpower.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Shapiro on
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What do you think about 325 GPM from a 200' 1-3/4" line using a 1-1/4" tip with a PDP of 205 psi? This hose is made by KEY and is called Combat Ready. It really is slightly larger than 1-3/4" measuring out at 1.88" or aproximately
1-7/8". It wieghs 20 lbs and handles just like 1-3/4". It's a great alternative blitz line for minimum staffing. In fact one guy can pull it, advance it and make a stand flowing it.
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I'll have to check that one out the next time we order hose, numbers sound good but doesn't mean as much as getting out and playing with it.
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Permalink Reply by Cody Martin on
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our department needs to start.training more with the 2 1/2 we hardly ever do..
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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My POC FD uses 2 inch Key Brand nitrile rubber hose in 100 foot lengths. This is the only size handline my FD uses. We equip it with an Elkhart combination nozzle tip rated at 200 gpm at 75 psi. That tip is attached to an Elkhart pistol grip shut off with a 1 1/4 inch slug tip.
Initially we underpump the combo tip to 160 gpm at 50 psi at the tip, of course we can go to 200 gpm at 75 psi at the tip. If 200 isn't enough we can remove the combo tip completely and flow 300 gpm at just under 45 psi at the tip.
We have been using this set up for over a decade, and while it was born out of a need for a heavy hit line that could be operated by minimum staffing it is still with us today with the staffing issue being solved.
Our attitude about the 2 1/2? We don't need it when we have a hoseline that 2 people can move around and flows as much as a 2 1/2 inch line. If we need more than 300 gpm from our attack lines we can pull 3 inch lines with either an Elkhart Ram with a 1 3/8 inch smooth bore, or an Elkhart Stinger with stacked tips on it.
IF your department wants to use 2 1/2 incch handlines I suggest you practice with it and not just standing up in the parking lot. Move it around in the training tower up and down stairs too. It is not impossible to move, just harder.
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To Paul; I have read many of your articles. I understand what you are saying. I think I am being misconstrued here. There are alternatives. Key is relatively new to the market correct? I had recently purchased Ponn, both supreme and conquest. One application is for stand-pipe use. The intent is for lower pump pressures, lower friction loss, acceptable flow, and ease of handling than what we currently use, which is 2.5".
The big issue (to me) that has pretty much been validated by this discussion is that use of larger flow hand-lines seems to be negelected becouse of a lack of training, or education. Again, there ARE alternatives to a 2.5' hand-line whan using it for an interior, offensive attack. There is also no mistake that there are those times when the flow rate of the 1.75' is inadequate. It's basic GPM's. How you get to those GPM's, how you apply them may differ.
I am no stranger to short-staffing. Been there long time. However there must be ways to get things done despite that short-staffing, and still be as effective as possible. The Firefighter who initiated this thread is a very experienced, well-rounded Firefighter and is also an associate with a private training group.Thoush he may now be employed with FDNY, he is NO stranger to working in short-staffed, semi-urban, suburban, and seasonal-tourism shore departments. So while he may now enjoy the luxury of working with a packed cab full of the best of the best, he has also done the same thing with about as diverse a crew as you can find. My point is he is a credible source, and has experience on several sides of this business, including volunteer.
What disturbs me is an instructor, I see an obvious failure in training our firefighters in the use of all of our tools on our engines. If you don't carry the 2.5"...oh well. If you do, and don't use it, why carry it? Defensive fires with heavy involvement and exposures require heavy water flow. Master streams and stationary 2.5" hand-line use are easily operated with one person. Yet far too often all we see is multiple 1.75' hand-lines.
There is ample proof a bigger hand-line can be stretched and operated with limited staffing. The training is available. It works. That's all I am saying.
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And all I am saying is that we can flow 300 gpm out to 300 feet in our 2 inch lines. If we need to go farther than that we run 3 inch lines and attach the 2 inch to that.
Funny thing is we flow 300 gpm from our 2 inch lines, most often when we talk about 2 1/2 inch lines we are talking about 250 gpm with a combination nozzle, or 265 gpm with a 1 1/8 inch smooth bore. Some departments do use a 1 1/4 inch tip on their 2 1/2 inch lines and they can flow 325 gpm for that, but they are in the monority. Heck even the FDNY uses the 1 1/8 inch tip for 265 gpm.
To me the only advantage of the 2 1/2 over the 2 inch line is for extended stretches you don't need to go to 3 inch hose like we do with the 2 inch. We could go to 2 1/2 to extend the stretch except we don't have any. Well over 95% of our fire responses can be reached with either our 200 or 300 foot 2 inch preconnects. Longer than that gets a deadlay bed of 3 inch 400 feet long with a gated wye and 100 feet of 2 inch attached.
Again, whatever works for the specific FD is cool by me.
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Don tell me what nozzles you are using with the 2" hose, and how you arrived at that choice. What is the nozzle pressure, and what is the PDP for 300gpm over 300' line? Did you use a flow meter to confirm the flows from the various discharges?
As I stated (I think) I just invested in 2" hose for use as a preconnect (200") and also for a standpipe application. I have reviewed some documents testing 2" hose on both drills and actual high-rise fires (Chicago) and have received positive feed-back.
I will be doing evolutions using various nozzles with the 2" including a 1" (1" x 5" )smooth bore and a Vindicator "Blitz" nozzle. After speaking with a rep from Akron Brass I was advised to go with the 1" smooth bore with a 1 1/8" waterway and extended 5" nozzle length to counter the nozzle reaction and improve stream reach.
So far with 50 psi @ nozzle the flow achieved is 210 gpm. And it IS considerably lighter and easier to advance with limited staffing. With 75psi @ nozzle the flow rate acheived is 265 gpm and can still me advanced using a 3-person hoseline crew.
There are flow, pressure, and weight stats available that compare the 2" to 2.5" showing considerable advantge.
However that does not negate the need for consistent training on the use of the 2.5" hand-line to develop consistency and ability when this line is needed. Currently there is at least 900' of 2.5" hose on our apparatus which by default pretty much shows the need for competency in it's use.
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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Our reason for not using them often has nothing to do with being too lazy. We can do a lot more with our 1 1/2" lines than most people realize. A quick and aggressive attack can do A LOT. Look at this video below of my volunteer department. Keep in mind that while a combination department, it's staffed better than most career departments and is one of the busiest in the nation. So this may not work for smaller cities that have slower response times due to waiting for personnel to respond from home or departments that respond with two guys. Also before you argue that there was nothing to save, watch until the end and see how much of the house was saved with an aggressive attack that couldn't have been done quickly enough with a 2 1/2".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JzpFBdUGE0&feature=channel_vide...
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