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Permalink Reply by Pararescue on June 6, 2011 at 9:56am

We started large area search training a year and a half ago. There is a lg bag that contains 150' of rope and, just as on a hose line everyone lines up "ducks in a row". The lead person stops when a search is going in progress. With that you have a rope that connects to the main line and search ff's can lead off 20' down a hall or isle in a commercial structure. This should have been a no brainer... for residential structure fires, but I didn't think outta the box. Thanks for getting me back to the outside of the box again! We're lucky enough to keep a minimum of 4 to 5 ff's on the engine and 6 to 7 on a truck. But the lack of probies coming in is getting lower and lower. I can see this becoming the "norm".

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Permalink Reply by capcityff on June 7, 2011 at 9:15pm

We never use a line to search. Only engine companies have lines and their job is to put the fire out. Rescue companies are assigned search and rescue. Trucks will do some searching as well some times depending on the situation.

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Permalink Reply by Pararescue on June 9, 2011 at 8:48am

But Cap, with the lack of ladders, rescues and squads, engines are the first on location most of the time. The 1st in engine might have to lay in the 1st line and the 2nd engine can lay in dry, search until the ladder gets on location, return to engine ops, and the 2nd ladder or rescue can join in the search. After doing research in the Buffalo area, every house had an engine and ladder, some had squads as well. The current budget, or lack there of, 9 ladders remain in service with 1 rescue and squads were done away with in the early 80's. Engines tend to be the "go to guys" to get priority functions done. We'd all love the be housed with a ladder, but as you well know, firefighters and any civil servants aren't a priority in any budget, and I know it makes me sick, but it seems we're the only ones that really know what the department needs until a firefighter LODD or several FF's are injured at the same fire. Then "we'll look into how this can be avoided in the future" report comes out. The B.S. report the city makes, you know.

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Permalink Reply by capcityff on June 9, 2011 at 12:02pm

Maybe there, but that's never been a problem here.With 33 engines, 16 trucks, and 3 rescues, we don't have that problem.

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on June 9, 2011 at 3:01pm

Cap,

I believe the purpose of the post here is to discuss options and techniques because of a lack of manpower, not individual depts. The post alludes to that there are many depts that are "short-handed" yet still face the very same incident priorities as you and other large cities. You may not have the problem, but does that mean the information is not valuable elsewhere?

You also mentioned in other posts how you volunteer outside your primary job, so is everything the same with that dept and operations as your primary? Do you get the same staffing and manpower on scene with that dept as you do your primary so that there is no reason to do such tactics as being presented here? Could you even see a reason as to why learning such a tactic can be valuable?

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on June 9, 2011 at 4:00pm

Tactical objectives must be adjusted to meet the available staffing. Primary search and advancing the first line are the main objectives. Ventilation fits right in there as well. How you accomplish thse objectives is dependant upon initial staffing, time-frame for second and thrid-due companies, and their staffing as well.

You may have an ass in ever seat but if they don't what they are doing, and if there isn't a plan, especially a pre-established plan, something, or perhaps everything is going to fail. It's not too hard to accomplish these objectives, conditionally dependant of course, with 3 or 4 fully-staffed engine and 1 or 2 trucks arriving close enough to orchestrate the opera into a perfect chorus and melody. It's when you can put things together like Rush, with 3 people all masters of their discipline individually making one hell of a song that wins the Grammy.

Searching off the line can be done with limited results. That's the key. You simply cannot accomplish everything the way it should be, and needs to be, simultaneously, when you are under-staffed and too few between like so many of us. Your just headed for trouble if you think you can adopt evolutions that have been proven over the years to work...with 5 or 6 company members, all trained and experienced to the same approximate level...when your pulling up with a crew of 3. Regardless of well you may know what needs to be done, and how well you mastered the concepts of the big departments, your gonna fail if you forget where you really are. 3 on an engine, and perhaps 2 on a truck does NOT equate to you having an engine and truck company. Your at half, at best. So you are going to maybe cover half the work. Try all you want, your just gonna push some of the Brothers and Sisters well passed their limits, and then somebody gets hurt...or worse.

The best you can do is to be well-trained, and practiced in VES, make sure evrybody on your company can throw a 24' alone with no problem, have your Officers fully understand size-up and the importence of pulling the right-sized line for the job...and make sure they HAVE that equipment (sometimes ya gotta think outside the so-called "box"), and focus on getting that line stretched, pressurized properly, to the best possible vantage point, and contain the fire. Stretching and advancing a hose-line with a crew of 2 is what I am used to doing, coming froman under-staffed department. As sson as I could get another person to back up the nozzle firefighter, as Officer I would break off and begin an oriented search, to the best of my ability, given conditions. The key is getting that line in the right position from the beginning...don't pullit until you know where your gonna go. Take an extra few seconds to get it right. Regardless of the length of your preconnects, or if your stretching off the static load...get it right!

If you have enough staff, stretch, enter (force if needed)with 2, split the other 2 and search and vent as you advance, providing they have a fully-charged line. Make sure you are fully aware of the water supply available. Sometimes a task as to be put off until you have enough people to do it, so you will have to prioritize. Usually getting the line on the fire takes precedence. But you may have make a calculated diversion and limit the line to maybe one person while you make the search, and they hopefully hold it.

Searching off the line and working under-staffed is not ideal, but it is reality. To deploy large-area search equipment may be correct, but in a residential fire, with time already against you, you may have to choose the fastest, most direct way to try to preserve a life. Arrive with a crew of 3 or 4 and that's all you got for the next 4 or 5 minutes or longer, with no promise of much more to come anytime soon and you'll be hard-pressed to take action that requires anything other than quickly-deployed, basic equipment and tactics.

But I guess I could be wrong...

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Permalink Reply by capcityff on June 9, 2011 at 6:39pm

I in no way meant to call anyone else wrong. I was just simply saying what we do and why.

My volunteer department sometimes has better staffing than the career one. I volunteer in Prince George's County, MD which is I think the 12th busiest department in the nation. So the volunteers see a lot of work and operate very similarly.

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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on June 9, 2011 at 7:06pm

Given that we don't have the kind of staffing and station density as D.C. or PGC, our engines generally do have to search.

Engines actually do primary searches all the time, though. They search the egress/ingress pathways where they drag the hoseline as they go. Those searches might not be comprehensive, but they are indeed a search.

If there are two companies arriving close together, I like the 1st engine to get water on the fire the "Search to the Fire" technique - a lot of times that makes things better for everyone. The other company (engine, quint, or truck in our case) can do a more detailed search off the line if the situation calls for it.

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Permalink Reply by Pararescue on June 10, 2011 at 9:45am

Buffalo is currently using 19 engines, 9 trucks, 1 rescue. Last night alone, a 2 alarm, a 1 alarm w/ 2&1 add'l (Both arson), and a 1 alarm all within the same time frame. If the city cuts any more houses, a night like this will bring in a recall of the off Platoon, and mutual aid from surrounding Towns. An alarm consists of 3 eng, 3 trucks, 1 rescue, BC & DC. After that, the safety Batt fills in as a BC, and a truck fills in as the rescue. The city gets tapped quickly. And this is the 2nd largest City department in New York.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Fire_Department

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