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Liability in the Vol. Fire Service/Time for someone to go?
The Vol. Fire Service is a great way to serve others. Unlike paid Depts...it is voluntary. My point is this..if a FF is for the most part...getting hurt during a fire scene/or at fire school training..getting back wacked out, on the very first exercise., doesn't really know some basic FF knowledge. When does this FF become a liability to the Dept. We do not have any requirement for entry in; other than a background check. I have asked our Trustees about this, and have not got a real answer. It appears the 'lawsuit' cloud hangs over this subject/or some other possible legal action. However, what if this FF injures another, etc...etc.
I think thi needs to be dealt with sooner than later; and we need to adopt some guidlines to protect ourselves and the Dept.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mick Mayers on
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There's a pretty standard way to handle the situation. With standards, that is. If you have a job description for every position from new member to Chief, there are expected standards that have to be met. If the person fails to meet those standards, if you have identified a process for remediating them and corrective action if they fail to meet the standard, it makes your life a lot easier.
Plenty of volunteers say they are "professional" as well as the career firefighters. While I agree in principle, in reality, if you fail to set standards for performance, regardless of whether you' re paid or volunteer, you are not being "professional". You can't say you meet the standard of being a professional unless you have an accepted stanard and live up to it.
Please excuse any typos. The keyboard funtion on my iPad has a lot to be desired. Good luck.
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Permalink Reply by hambone22 on
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Wow. First things first...
If this was a black male fire fighter, would you feel the incessant need to keep mentioning the fact that he was black? I'm guessing not. You would be viewed a racist and no one would take your post seriously. However, since this involves a stereotypical blonde, it's ok. I'm in no way shape or form discounting the fact that she doesn't belong in the fire service, but a male with the same attributes wouldn't belong either. Maybe she needs guidance and a strong mentoring program...
That's how we run it in the full time ranks. Not sure how you guys in the "good ol' boy club" operate. Good luck
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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This is a hot issue near me, and one that makes me angry. I have been beating my head into the wall trying to figure out why some departments vote people in and let them go interior right away without training...than 2 years later that same person is Lieutenant?!?!?!?!?!?! Its all about POPULARITY and the fact that their daddy, granddaddy, uncle, brother or whatever, is Chief and gives them preference over other highly trained and knowledgeable firefighters who work hard at training.
In my current department you face a 6 month probationary period. You do not receive building keys or a blue light card until you finish this probation and get approved by the membership. You must be trained to Firefighter I to be interior and are encouraged to attend the Safety & Survival course as well. It is expected and mandated that ALL members take the annual OSHA 8 hour refresher training, NO EXCUSES, or you become exterior/support.
We will now also be requiring all members to pass a personal escape system test at the training tower annually, by demonstrating that you can bail out of a window using your rope rescue system without assistance.
Just because our title says "Volunteer" doesnt necessarily mean you have the right to be less "PROFESSIONAL" than a career firefighter has to be. We may not fight as many fires, but we still fight them, and when it happens we need to be just as trained and professional as the career firefighter. Fire is an equal opportunity killer, and it will take us out just as fast as a career FF. It will not stop and say "Oh gee, he/she is only volunteer and doesnt have the time to train because of his job/family obligations so I will not kill them today"
We as volunteers need to step up to the plate and train AS HARD as the career brothers and sisters, and hold ourselves to the same standards and SOP's that they do. We cant hide behind the term "Volunteer" any longer. People need to know BEFORE THEY JOIN, what the requirements of being a firefighter are, and it needs to be laid out in plain black and white details, and it needs to be agreed upon by the member that he/she will take the necessary training or be dropped from the rolls...Its that simple. You need to train to enter any IDLH atmosphere where you could kill someone, or yourself, and further destroy any remaining reputation that the volunteer has in their communities and the service itself...
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Permalink Reply by Daniel J. Graham on
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Well said, Moose. I'd like to go one step further and say this. As I approach my 10 year mark in the fire service, I have seen many incompetent, unsafe, self righteous, and arrogant "firefighters" who have no interest in actually EARNING that title. If you are a firefighter, you MUST express your concern to your officers. If you are an officer (especially a Chief) you absolutely ***MUST*** take action. Verbal warnings only go so far. Give them the SOG's, Bylaws, Rules and Regs, and whatever other documents your department follows - then make sure they sign off that they have read, understand, and agree to abide by them. Document every time a violation occurs. And if the time comes that they must be dealt disciplinary action, it must be swift and fair. When all else fails, it's time for the "I don't think this particular field is for you" talk. Every single person has a role in the volunteer fire service. I personally feel like absolutely any good-intentioned individual has a place where they can contribute SOMETHING. But the fact remains that this is a tough job, and not everyone is capable of doing it. Maybe that person is better suited to a social or auxiliary function. You have to give them a chance at being a firefighter, everyone is entitled to that. But the best way, in my opinion, to avoid liability is to show them something they excel at - so that they are contributing in a positive way that helps both the individual and the company, and at the same time eliminates liability and minimizes the safety hazards. Be safe and best of luck to you.
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Permalink Reply by Bill Anderson on
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Our membership requirements are so liberal that all you need is a clear criminal history. We are a small rural community and are forced to take just about anyone who shows up. Our population to pick from is extremely lacking. A few of us disagree, but it does no good. We are in the process of updating our by-laws and SOP's and I hope we address this issue, otherwise someone like this is either going to get them self or someone else hurt, at the least.
Due to a lack of support from higher ups, we have been known to make it hard on others who were untrainable and they quit. With this one it's hard to reason with someone who can't comprehend what you are telling her. I'm on the board of directors and get shot down every time I mention her. It's like everyone thinks she's funny. NOT TO ME. When the inevitable does happen, I have no problem telling them, "I told ya." I've been in public safety long enough to recognize someone who doesn't have it, and she never will.
Some of us have voiced concerns about this person, but she is still allowed to respond. She has no training, and does nothing when she does respond. Like I said I will bump her off the truck if someone experienced shows up. Why she is being allowed to run calls is beyond me, or my control.
As far as the stereotype deal, she is the prime example of the dumb blonde persona. I have nothing against blondes or females as long as they pull their weight, she can't process a simple conversation without getting lost. I was trying to state how dumb this person is without outright calling her a moron, which may have been more fitting.
Our doors do have sensors on them, the problem is she doesn't comprehend. As far as traffic safety, we do block on the highway, but sometimes on minor incidents we leave one lane open, sometimes putting traffic on the shoulder. She pays no attention to her surroundings and just wonders around like she's in her back yard. You can't explain situational awareness to her. She doesn't understand what we try to tell her. She's a liability, yet is still allowed to respond. As far as she is concerned, I'm going to cover me and whoever else I'm on the truck with and continue to let my observations be known, that's all I can do. My hands are tied with this situation.
Also, she is has to be watched, but I get chewed on by the safety officer for wearing only my helmet, vest, and pants on a minor daytime MVA, which I have read as the NFPA minimum for daytime response, not actively working.
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I agree with you too Dan, well said.
There should be (and there is in our area) different levels of membership for volunteer organizations. We have "Interior Firefighter", "Exterior", Driver/Operator, and administrative. Interior is self explanatory as well as exterior and driver. Administrative are the class of members that want to help, but either cant, or do not want to fight the fire or cut the people out of cars. These members will coordinate fund raisers and work them, do the administrative functions like being secretary of the dept, doing the community programs like fire prevention (with an experienced firefighter/officer) and open houses. These are the "Behind the scenes" members that do all the boring stuff. We even allow men to join the Ladies Auxilliary so they can help out there. (Dont laugh, im serious. Had a guy with mild developmental disabilities that wanted to be a firefighter but due to physical restrictions he couldnt, so he joined the ladies and he brings refreshments to fires and talks to the firefighters and jokes around, hes a great person and helps out in that capacity.)
SO there are other options for those that "Cant do the training" for whatever their reasons or excuses. Just dont try to be interior and continue to "Whine" that your job doesnt allow you to go to training yet you can make the banquets and family functions like picnics and such...
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Permalink Reply by ashfire on
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I guess a lot of depts don't have a watchdog group that will spot safety issues like problem members. Since I am part of a combination system of career and vol personnel, the career personnel will advise their supervisors which will go up the line to the county fire chief who will take action to ask a vol chief to take action or face suspenion of operations in their vol company.
I have seen another county take action to suspend the entire vol membership over unsafe or actions that were unprofessinal in nature against another company or personnel.
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Permalink Reply by Patti Walz on
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But if you have a career who hates vollies......
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Permalink Reply by Mike Almendinger on
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Now now Patti, that never happens. Those career guys are much to professional for that!
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or better yet women vollies....
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Permalink Reply by Fabulous Heather Days of Summer on
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it is NOT a "Ladies Auxilliary" that is a default...
It is a Fire Department auxilliary - happens to primarily consist of wives / girlfriends - but my department everyone was welcome - all community members - of all gender, race, or greed... yes even males...
So quit calling it the "Ladies Auxilliary" would ya ;-)
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thus the need for consistent rules for EVERYONE and documentation of everything
written standards
written progressive discipline
testing
written policies
and then when someone is dismissed then they & the department has evidence or not to take to mediation or court with them
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