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Perfect Firefighters
I just watched a video of a fire. I'm not going to say what department because thats not the issue. The issue is perfect firefighters commenting on the thousands of the things the company did wrong.
They comment on how many drivers does it take to pump an engine. Using the wrong lines, etc etc.
I was in the business for 30 years. I've made alot of mistakes as a firefighter, driver and officer. But never lost anyone or had a firefighter hurt. Mostly thats from luck.
Its so easy to watch a video and monday morning quarterback. But I'm sure if they were on video people could do the same thing. Most of us know there are rules to this business. But we also know those rules go out the windows sometimes.
Pulling a booster line on a house fire. Sure we don't want a inch line but if thats all you can do and use it to protect esposures until more arrives or even stick it in the window I have no issue with that.
If it takes 3 drivers to pull lines, hook up the supply line, make sure the lines are clear and the crew gets water who cares.
And my biggest pet peeve. "They took forever to get there" I've told the story befoe how my mom called for an ambulance I called and cursed 9-1-1 because they were taking too long. I've been on all three sides of an emergency situation. As a responder going to the firehouse I didn't go slow. As a driver I didn't go slow, It feels like your flying like the wind. When I tool calls as a 9-1-1 operator I entered the calls as I was talking to insure prompt response. Bu as a person who needed emergency services...you people take forever. Or thats the way it seems.
My point of this long rambling post...think about the situation before you make a comment on a website about another company or department. Especially if your gear is still fresh and new and the closest you ever come to fire and the cigarette in your mouth. No fire department is perfect. We all make mistakes. Instead of bashing use it as a learning point.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Patti Walz on
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Very well said.
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Permalink Reply by Michael A on
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Being a 911 dispatcher I get the arm chair quarterback all the time. If a someone calls in a complaint our director pulls the tapes and reviews all the recordings. I've told him time after time its not fair what he does. He gets to sit in his nice office with the door closed and review the tapes and if he thinks he heard something he can stop and back up and re-listen. As a dispatcher I have to make decisions in a split second, I have other lines ringing I have police fire EMS all calling in the radios. I don't have the luxury of stopping going back and re-listen to something.
It also applies to the field you get people watching you fight the fires and they always seem to know how to do it better.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Craig;
Are you suggesting we NOT use close calls or NIOSH LODD to learn how to be safer?
If we're only learning from incidents where everything went right, isn't that just pretending that nothing ever goes wrong?
Seems to me that "pride and ego" would be the reason for NOT using close calls or LODD's. I'm just sayin'...
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Permalink Reply by Nenad on
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Mine thoughts were more oriented to the observers on the scene, not to the people who know the job.
It is good to have someone on the scene to see details which can't be seen ''in the heat of battle''.That is often my role; to coordinate the work on the scene, to observe, to communicate, to have large view of the scene.
Here in my part of the world ''civilians'' are always commenting, and knowing better other job and that is frustrating. So I came to them and polite ask to show us how to do it. I make the difference from willing to help and talking just for comment (mostly negative).
In my team after every significant intervention we sit and talk to see, if the things could be done better. We are humans after all, and we all make mistakes. It is in nature of our job to improve ourselves, allowing to see mistakes and finding the way to be better next time.
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Permalink Reply by Tyler Lyons on
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There are many ways to skin a cat.... that being said... everyone has their own opinions, Leather helmet-Poly helmet, Red truck-White truck, smooth bore-fog nozzle. Sometimes we need to see what other people are doing and how do we correct mistakes.
Take some comments when you screw up, firefighters SHOULD learn from someone else's mistakes. If you don't learn something when you screw up your an idiot. If your team isn't proficient, train harder so you don't get anyone killed. No one likes hearing that they screwed up, maybe they did or didn't but if there is a better or safer way.... you can try it.
I don't agree with taking a 1.5" line into a commercial structure with heavy fire showing, but alot of people say they do it all the time... to each its own.
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Permalink Reply by Pierre-Louis Lamballais on
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I have a little story, demonstrating the main problem is not the way they talk but the way we undertsand. A few years ago, I was instructor for a basic FF course in France. The cours was of one week (monhday-> friday) from 8AM, but my part start on wednesday at 10AM.
At 9AM on wednesday, I went to the fire school, and enter the classroom. We were 3 instructors and one of us was giving the theorical part of his course. The classroom was wide and the door was at the back, so the young FF were unable to see me, and unable also to see the other instructor, sitting on a table behind them. I waq sitting with him, and we started to talk (in silence to not disturb the course!). The conversation was as follow:
Me: "A good student group?"
Him: "yes, good, except one"
- Oh? Where is he?
- Here (showing him to me). A kind of f... bastard!
- Oh?? He escape rather than helping?
- No, he helps a lot
- Well... He is not strong enought? He listen nothing?
- No, he's doing a perfect job, and listen everything.
- So what???
- He is always asking questions.
I pause a second and ask my collegue:
- He is a f... bastard because he does questions or because he does questions and YOU don't know how to answer?
My collegue paused a few second too and looked at me with a smile and said "Well, you're right. I consider him as bad because in fact, I don't know how to answer".
What we can see here, is that we named a guy as a bad one, not by the way he talk, but by the way we listen. And in that case, we can imagine this guy was, in fact, the only student really interessted by the course!
During all my couses, when I train instructor, I always tell them that the bad student or the one who ask questions, are juste a miror of what you've done. A student came to your course, because he don't know. If he them perform a bad action, in 99% of the cases, he just repeat what you show him.
Also, we can't forget another point: on Youtube or Dailymotion, the number of word is limited. So it's hard to explain.
Also, the danger is that, in many cases, video seens on the internet are taken as "the best things to do". Like for commercial product "as seen on TV" try to proove a product is good, "as seen on Youtube" can be seen as a quality insurrance.
For many FF, it's not possible to sort the good and the wrong, and when you see videos showing bad things, with comments like "Perfect! ", "Very good!" , it tend to spread bad informations.
We must find the middle point, and, as usual, it's hard!
Best regards
Pierre-Louis
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I'm far from perfect and I admit criticism with argument. If you want to talk about tactics, you don't need to be a FF. You just have to study. Of course if you study and have also the opportunity to test it would be better.
Some high level expert in military tactics are not in the army, but the army use their document.
Regards
Pierre-Louis
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Hi (again),
Saying we are not perfect and so on, is nice. Nobody's perfect.But we must consider saying what we think about bad attitudes, even if sometimes, it's not fun to listen to criticism.
On the other side, are we able to be "perfect" or, are we able to explain what we will do in front of some situation? Not complicated one, but "basic one"?
A few hours ago, I post this messages:
http://www.firefighternation.com/forum/topics/on-the-scene-of-a-str...
Just a photo, just a situation. I wait for your way of doing. Not to see if you are "perfect FF", but to see what you'll do in front of that.
I hope you will answer, and at the end I will explain you what the guys have done. because if they are not "perfect", I must admit they are closed to this state.
Best regards
Pierre-Louis
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Permalink Reply by Pararescue on
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What exactly are you learning from close calls and LODD's?
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Permalink Reply by Wade Seely on
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Jason
There are a lot of valuable things to learn from close calls and LODD reaports. Across the country many of us see the exact same buildings and contruction styles that these incidents occur at. Watching these videos or reading the reports can give you a better understanding of how those buildings can react under fire conditions. For guys newer to the fire service, myself included, you can learn things that you should or should not do in certain scenarios. Yes, we should all be learning fireground operations in an academy and by attening trainings, but those may not teach everything or they could breeze over a certain topic that these reports show in high detail. Think of it like watching someone driviing an atv through a muddy riverbed and accidentally driving through a deep spot and getting stuck. Now it's your turn to ride and now you know to avoid that area. If you weren't paying attention to what went on you could very well repeat his mistake and that would just be stupid.
If you don't learn from history, then you are bound to repeat it.
TCSS
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I agree completly with you. And we can add a small example. Here are two pictures. The first show the house where two FF and a child died on the 1st of Feb 1996, in Blaina (Wales-England). The second show the house where 3 US FF died on the 22 dec of 1999 in Keokuk (Iowa - USA).
The houses are the same, the fire is at the same location, and the guys performed the same action. And we have the same result.
The main problem is that, according to the level of the tools we have, we must admit that today human responsability is the main factor in acccident.
In air transport companies, the "near accident" is immediatly documented and the info send to everyone. Not in the fire service. When someone fall from the first level of the ladder, everybody laught. When a second guy fall, we laught again and at the end, we all wait for the guy to fall. No-one ask "If we fall from the first level, we must now why" and maybe we would discoverd our boots are slipping on this ladder. As we never do that, a few month after, when a guy, on the fire scene, will fall down but not from the first level, but from the last one, and break his neck and stay paralyse for life, we will all be sad and sell tee shirt to get money for him...
The problem is that, if you tell something the first time, the "community", the "brother" will fire you, saying "We are all brother so dont' make criticism".
We must make criticism. A lot.Because the world is changing, and it's changing faster that we can imagine.
If, with internet, with mail, with automatic translation tool, we are not able to compare Blaina and Keokuk accident and change our way of doing, we are really facing a big problem.
Concerning Jason, video and criticism, he know what i'm talking about. I'm still OK to write article for you my friend. But not to say "The world is marvellous and we are very good".
Best regards
Pierre-Louis
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Permalink Reply by Sebastien THILLY on
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I tried to read all comments, i agree with Andy Turnham. How to know things we're not in !
Humility and common sense
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