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What would you do if this happened
I am writing this to seek advice from my brother and sister firefighters, I know im going to get alot of gruff for putting this on FFNation but my hands are tied and dont know where to turn for adivce. The following has taken place in my dept I belong to.
A very close brother FF was terminated from my volunteer dept last week after he made a comment about the dept on facebook.
A little about the member he is a 20 year old 2 year member of the dept and has an extensive background in FF our chief has said he is the most qualified person in our dept if not the county. He just graduated at the top of his class with an associates degree in fire science and has over 60 state and national fire certifications in everything from EMT to Firefighting to technical rescue of various kinds etc. So basically he is a young man just starting his career and at todays day in volunteer service is a dream for any volly dept to have with his kind of ambition for the service. The only time this young individual has been reprimanded in the dept is 3 times for driving faster than he should have been going to calls he had been suspended each time and was getting much better and had gone over a year with out any further problem infact even removed his lightbar to further reduce any problems. (which for a young firemen to do I think is a huge step) other than that he has never done anything even one step out of line and never but himself or anyone else in any type of danger or anything like that.
A little about the dept is that it is a very rural dept that is primarily older member who still operate the way they were taught when they were younger, to say the least the dept is not up to speed where they should be but that is another whole issue to which some of us are trying to work on but the dept is not liking the change.
Then last week this FF had taken part in a dept training on Monday night our normal training night and was upset over what was being taught which was the old ways and not current teaching to which he knew this do to his extensive training he recently completed but instead of causing an argument at the training he just sat thru it and didnt say anything when he go home that night he was still upset over what had been taught so this FF put a message on his facebook page stating “volunteering to be aggravated love it NOT!” to which some other of the dept FF commented back on saying “must be the fire dept” to which the FF replied “oh you bet, time to move on cause things are never going to get better there until the chiefs that are in are gone” to which one of the other FF replied calling the current chiefs “obama” and “hussian” and other FF replied “ yeah im not sure what there trying to do besides drive all the good firefighters out until nobodys left” and the FF replied “ im not sure what there trying to do either the only thing I can figure out is in the direction there going they want it to be only them left to do everything and thats it guess they feel they dont need anyone else.” and that was the extent of the comments online. The next day the chief of the dept called this FF at home and advised him he was being terminated immediately when the FF ask why the chief started to yell at him and say because he has some complaints about what was said online and that this FF called them Obama and Hussian which he did not (we have the original facebook messages to prove this) the chief continued to scream that if he has a problem with it that the FF can come to the board of commissioners meeting and discuss all this in executive session there at this point instead of creating a argument with the chief he hung up the phone and had no further contact with the chief. Then 2 days later the FF recieved a letter from the chief stateing “effective immediatly you are terminated from ABC fire dept and from CBA fire dist. Please meet myself at the ABC hal on Saturday at 9 am to turn in all dept issued gear, if you can not meet at this time please call me so we can arrange a more convenient time. If you would like to address your termination with the commissioners (and gives meeting time and location)”
Signed by chief and states a copy of letter has also been given to each of the 5 commissioners and to the dist lawyer. So on top of this FF having to work Saturday morning and not wanting to have contact with the chief at this time he contacted one of the commissioners and meet with the commissioner and turn in all his gear and the commissioner said he would notify the chief.
When the FF had talked with the commissioner to which he had surrendered his gear to had not been notified of his termination which was now 3 days after he had been even though the termination letter states it was sent to all commissioners. Also the other FF including the one who made the Obama and Hussian comment was not terminated untill 2 days later and that was only because of further comments they personally made on there own facebook in retaliation to the said FF termination.
What I am looking for is any advice or anything else the FFNation community could offer for what this FF can do now he does plan to attend the commissioners meeting which is to take place tomorrow evening but does not expect it to go very well.
To me none of this seems fair or legal to any FF, when does ones freedom of speech come in to play at no time did he make any threats to any one or anything what are your thoughts and what would you do in this case?
A very close brother FF was terminated from my volunteer dept last week after he made a comment about the dept on facebook.
A little about the member he is a 20 year old 2 year member of the dept and has an extensive background in FF our chief has said he is the most qualified person in our dept if not the county. He just graduated at the top of his class with an associates degree in fire science and has over 60 state and national fire certifications in everything from EMT to Firefighting to technical rescue of various kinds etc. So basically he is a young man just starting his career and at todays day in volunteer service is a dream for any volly dept to have with his kind of ambition for the service. The only time this young individual has been reprimanded in the dept is 3 times for driving faster than he should have been going to calls he had been suspended each time and was getting much better and had gone over a year with out any further problem infact even removed his lightbar to further reduce any problems. (which for a young firemen to do I think is a huge step) other than that he has never done anything even one step out of line and never but himself or anyone else in any type of danger or anything like that.
A little about the dept is that it is a very rural dept that is primarily older member who still operate the way they were taught when they were younger, to say the least the dept is not up to speed where they should be but that is another whole issue to which some of us are trying to work on but the dept is not liking the change.
Then last week this FF had taken part in a dept training on Monday night our normal training night and was upset over what was being taught which was the old ways and not current teaching to which he knew this do to his extensive training he recently completed but instead of causing an argument at the training he just sat thru it and didnt say anything when he go home that night he was still upset over what had been taught so this FF put a message on his facebook page stating “volunteering to be aggravated love it NOT!” to which some other of the dept FF commented back on saying “must be the fire dept” to which the FF replied “oh you bet, time to move on cause things are never going to get better there until the chiefs that are in are gone” to which one of the other FF replied calling the current chiefs “obama” and “hussian” and other FF replied “ yeah im not sure what there trying to do besides drive all the good firefighters out until nobodys left” and the FF replied “ im not sure what there trying to do either the only thing I can figure out is in the direction there going they want it to be only them left to do everything and thats it guess they feel they dont need anyone else.” and that was the extent of the comments online. The next day the chief of the dept called this FF at home and advised him he was being terminated immediately when the FF ask why the chief started to yell at him and say because he has some complaints about what was said online and that this FF called them Obama and Hussian which he did not (we have the original facebook messages to prove this) the chief continued to scream that if he has a problem with it that the FF can come to the board of commissioners meeting and discuss all this in executive session there at this point instead of creating a argument with the chief he hung up the phone and had no further contact with the chief. Then 2 days later the FF recieved a letter from the chief stateing “effective immediatly you are terminated from ABC fire dept and from CBA fire dist. Please meet myself at the ABC hal on Saturday at 9 am to turn in all dept issued gear, if you can not meet at this time please call me so we can arrange a more convenient time. If you would like to address your termination with the commissioners (and gives meeting time and location)”
Signed by chief and states a copy of letter has also been given to each of the 5 commissioners and to the dist lawyer. So on top of this FF having to work Saturday morning and not wanting to have contact with the chief at this time he contacted one of the commissioners and meet with the commissioner and turn in all his gear and the commissioner said he would notify the chief.
When the FF had talked with the commissioner to which he had surrendered his gear to had not been notified of his termination which was now 3 days after he had been even though the termination letter states it was sent to all commissioners. Also the other FF including the one who made the Obama and Hussian comment was not terminated untill 2 days later and that was only because of further comments they personally made on there own facebook in retaliation to the said FF termination.
What I am looking for is any advice or anything else the FFNation community could offer for what this FF can do now he does plan to attend the commissioners meeting which is to take place tomorrow evening but does not expect it to go very well.
To me none of this seems fair or legal to any FF, when does ones freedom of speech come in to play at no time did he make any threats to any one or anything what are your thoughts and what would you do in this case?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Richard Armstrong on
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It's hard to fight brass.He was in the wrong for bitching out side the house.If he had a problem he should have brought it up in training.He should have asked them what they thought of how he had just learned to do it.Not go on a smear campaign on facebook.After all you say you have the printed version to bring but I believe you said that he said "it's time to move on" So I'm not really sure that he's gonna get anywhere but he may want to peel an onion in the parking lot before he goes into the meeting and hope for the best.
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Permalink Reply by Jeremy Pickett on
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This is a tough situation. The first amendment gives us freedom of speech, so I don't think it's grounds for termination. But I do think the firefighter should have been mature enough not to post things like that on facebook. It's common knowledge that everything you post on facebook gets around town. Don't post anything you don't want everyone to know about. I think the Chief should have talked to him about it and told him this was not acceptable. Just my thoughts. End result, the chief runs the show. Best thing the firefighter can do is plead his case to the commissioners.
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Permalink Reply by John on
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Richard you are correct he did state that he was thinking of moving on in one of the facebook messages of course that was when he was still "hot" about the whole thing and did he really mean it no, can the commissioners really go with that and use that to keep him out?
rich and jeremy thank you for your input
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Permalink Reply by David Earl Gregory on
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I'm not going to say a lot on this but here goes. Yeah, he should have made his questions known "in-house" as opposed to going public with a beef when he still had his panties in a wad. Secondly, I notice here on FFN that a lot of the newer folks seem to have some sort of issue in general with the "old ways" of doing things. Any of you young'uns ever stop long enough to think we "old guys" are still around BECAUSE of how we did things? Think about that next time you are in a training session and someone is showing/teaching an "old way" for this or that. It just might save yer bacon one day. :-)
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Your *friend* needs to review the department's Progressive Discipline Policy.
Also, review whatever passes for bylaws that addresses termination, and if there is a policy regarding social media and public/disparaging comments towards/about the department.
As to this person's record, 3 separate instances of speeding, each followed by a suspension suggests that this person may have been on his last little bit of grace with the chief/department.
All the above being said, there could possibly be grounds to sue for reinstatement, based on insufficient grounds for termination. Again, it pretty much depends on department policies. Also, if this person was justifiably terminated for the reasons (and the circumstances) given, your post here could subject you to the same course of action.
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Thee is no discipline policy in place atleast not in writing and barely any bylaws which I do not know all of what they are as the dept refuses to provide a copy they claim they are out of copies and are in the process of rewriting them
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Permalink Reply by Captain William Frazer on
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A bit over the top in my opinion. But in any case appealing to the town fathers is the best course of action. Other then that the Chief does have a say, but if you have commissioners, then he isnt a Strong Chief. Even if he was reinstated, as a volly he will be watched too much and will have to walk on egg shells when working there. Better to take all his work and find a career dept. to join. I am not sure how your town government works, or your local laws. I feel bad for him, seems he was a good asset to your department.
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Permalink Reply by Gregory Borg on
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How can you get terminated from a volunteer department? You don't work for them, you volunteer. I guess they can say please don't come back but it is not being terminated, that is saved for people that get paid and there are rules and resolutions for the process.
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Yes I understand that but that is what he was told and what the letter says is that he was terminated the letter doesnt even state a reason why
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Permalink Reply by Bull on
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I am not taking sides here, but I am a little concerned on a few things. He is 20 yrs old and is the most qaulified ??? Or because he has all these certifications ??? Are any of them certifications in Driver/Operator where they state you should speed ??? Are any of them in Communications, or Incident Command where they state you dont need to listen to your Officers ??? How many times you need to be suspended to figure out you shouldnt be speeding, and if he is getting "BETTER" at slowing down, tells me he still hasnt gotten the message !!! Sounds to me that because he has all this schooling and apparently all this experience to be the most qaulified, not only in the dept, but "probably" the county, that he may have an issue with authority ??? I know nothing of the dept, or the person in question, but them are the red flags I see from what you wrote...but...thats just my opinion !!!
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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That's what I was thinking. So he got kicked out? Big deal. Why are lawyers involved? Its a VOLUNTEER department. Find a new one. I take it he wants to be career since he's got 60 certifications(which I don't believe) and is the most qualified(even worse). So a rural volly house isn't a big deal anyway since he probably wouldn't want to stay there since they dont have career houses anyway. The whole story sounds messed up.
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that was in the words of the same chief that has thrown him out that said he is most qualified in the dept and or county that was not the FF himself or me. he does not have any problems with listening to or any problems with any of the officers in this dept nor does he try to go above them I hope that is not what you got from how I wrote it and yes he does have certs in EVOC, Communications, ICS. I appreciate your opinion being given either way thank you
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