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Are paid and volunteer firefighters equally receptive to junior firefighters?
I was reading a post on here about junior firefighters and if they should be called firefighters, when a thought popped into my head. Are paid firefighters less receptive to junior firefighters? Are volunteer firefighters more receptive? Should that be reversed? or is it just a personal matter everyone needs to decide on their own? One man said as a volunteer he would be happy to have juniors out there doing the small jobs (packing hose, changing air bottles, ect.) so that one more firefighters could go in and help fight the actual fire instead of doing those jobs. Now as a junior firefighter from an entirely volunteer station i have a fairly one sided view of this issue so i am asking for your opinions. With this post i am NOT meaning to start up the "should we have junior firefighters" discussion or the "Is it better to be a volunteer or paid firefighter" one either. Thank you to all who post!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Brian Cohen on
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I think anyone willing to step up and truly learn the job should be welcomed. Age is not always the best gauge. I think it all comes down to the leader. You have assigned task and do not go outside your training.
As a Jr. you need to have ticker skin. No matter where I have worked growing up there have always been those that gave me crap about my age or something. Just suck-it up and listen and you will find that most of the time you will learn a great deal from these butt-holes.
This is a serious job junior, paid or volunteer. I know many from each group that just think they want to be a FF, because they dam sure do not train like it. My life and my partners are in each other’s hands. We need to understand each other’s weaknesses and strengths.
Bottom line if this is what you want to do prove it and do not let anyone deter you. Thanks for steping up and be safe.
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Permalink Reply by 2npakixhogez3 on
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I've grown up in a firestation. My Dad is an Lt. and I've been running calls and around his fire station my whole life. In that time I've seen paid, volly, old, and young guys work with explorers and they all interact differently. I know that their are a lot of guys who don't know what to do with explorers and therefore say stay by the IC. There are also a lot of guys that don't know what to do with explorers so they take them along everywhere. Personally I think that the second group of guys are more fun, they may get you in trouble with the IC, but its fun while it lasts. There are also guys that know the a little bit about the law, and they don't let explorers do anything cause they think its breaking the law. There are also guys that know what to do with explorers and those are the guys you need to find. In this thread there have been all of the above. You can learn from all of them but one of them will be the best. They will be fun, safe, and helpful. My old man is one of the good ones. He is our advisor, and ask any of the guys, who do you want to ride with--the answer is usually Lt. Snodgrass.
To all of you who run your mouth about riffs and differences and paid v. volly. If you don't have over 5 yrs experience in a firehouse shut your mouth. The best way to get in trouble is to run your mouth. Something you say on one of these forums will get to a guy at the top and get you busted. Its not 100% but I have seen it happen all to often.
As to what can and can't an explorer do...
From my experience the best place for an explorer to be is in the hip pocket of the paramedic or the guy in the backseat until he enters the IDLH. I think that an explorer should help with bottles and rehab and reloading hose. I think that the explorers should be able to do most exterior ground ops on a fire ground. Now to qualify that if an explorer is on their first ridealong and they get a fire they should do a whole lot of watching. But if an explorer gets a fire after 2 or 3 years that is much different. Also the explorers should know what they know how to do and what they don't know. For instance, if a FF asks an explorer to throw a ladder to the second floor and the explorer doesn't know how they shouln't do it. But if the explorer knows how they should go ahead. Also, after a fire and the building has been cleared of IDLH status--ie no HCN, regular O2 lvls, structurally sound. After that has happened I think explorers are a great resource for the mop up.
Again everything I have said here comes from experience.
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Permalink Reply by Zach Pfeifer on
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Jrs are the next gen. of fire people.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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I've seen paid, volly, old, and young guys work with explorers and they all interact differently. I know that their are a lot of guys who don't know what to do with explorers and therefore say stay by the IC. There are also a lot of guys that don't know what to do with explorers so they take them along everywhere. Personally I think that the second group of guys are more fun, they may get you in trouble with the IC, but its fun while it lasts.
The first group is correct. The best place for an explorer on a scene is with the IC, where they can OBSERVE and also follow along to the radio. Fun? really? It may get them in trouble, but it is fun? I guess everything should just be hunky-dory then if it is fun right? Hate to break the news, but the fireground is a dangerous place, it is no place for children, it is not a playground, it is a serious place for qualified, certified people to be on, not children.
As to what can and can't an explorer do...
Explorers is the name of those youth affiliated with the Learning for Life organization and have set rules established as to what they can and can't do.....perhaps you need to relook into those.
I think that the explorers should be able to do most exterior ground ops on a fire ground.
Wrongo. If lucky enough to be on a scene, the place for an Explorer is observing, not participating.
Now to qualify that if an explorer is on their first ridealong and they get a fire they should do a whole lot of watching. But if an explorer gets a fire after 2 or 3 years that is much different.
No, it isn't different, it doesn't matter if one is an explorer for 10 years, until they are an actual certified firefighter with the appropriate schooling and requirements under their belt and meet that magic age of 18, there is nothing for them to do on a fireground, zero, zip, zilch.
if a FF asks an explorer to throw a ladder to the second floor and the explorer doesn't know how they shouln't do it. But if the explorer knows how they should go ahead
Nope, because the Explorer shouldn't be on the fireground in the first place and secondly, re-read the other points already made.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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To qualify as the next generation of fire people(?) one has to survive. Using and exposing children (<18y/o) to hazardous environments and dangerous situations not only limits their likely hood of making it into the next generation of fire people(?) but opens up their department to huge liabilities. But then, it's adults that typically worry about liability, and hazards to children. Children generally aren't capable of making such decisions/distinctions.
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I think that and this isn't an attack, you don't spend a lot of time training young adults. Cause first the learning for life foundation knows the fire ground is no place for children, that is why they have set age limits 14 to 20. Second I have a question. Why do you do your job, don't you have fun at your job, and if you don't then why do you emerse yourself in it?. Also learning for life encourages participation in a direct quote from learning for life's explorer page I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the game I'm playing. Learning for life engourages participation including participation on the fire ground. Thats what its about, being there and doing. Without actually doing things or being their how are we supposed to learn, because every career fire fighter will tell you being there is different then book work or training. The IC is no place for an explorer because most of the time what the IC says is way above what the explorer needs to learn. IC is dealing with COMMAND issues not tactics and operations. These are very differen. Your post however dissapoints me, because this is supposed to be a place for explorers to gain information and share information and beliefs in a safe way. Also you make fairly biting remarks towards some of the observations I made, which were completely unnecessary. Also I appologize if I offended you by lumping you in with the group of people that don't know how to work with explorers. Thanks
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you don't spend a lot of time training young adults.
I started as an Explorer and was affiliated with the Boy Scouts (the backing of the LFL) before the Learning for Life took over. I have been affiliated with Exploring for the past 21 years, with the past 15 years as an Advisor and since I have to be certified by the LFL in order to be an advisor, I would say I have a good handle on the rules as well as time training young adults.
Why do you do your job, don't you have fun at your job, and if you don't then why do you emerse yourself in it?.
Go back and read what I wrote. I stated the fireground is not a playground, it is a serious place for qualified, certified personnel. There is time for fun and that is the comraderie at the coffee table or in the station, the fireground is serious business, not a playground. I do not consider watching the homeowner crying because they are losing what they have as fun. I do not consider going in to look for the missing person in a smoke filled apartment complex as fun. I do not consider hearing a MAYDAY call as fellow firefighters become trapped inside a burning structure as fun. I do not consider the loss of a life as fun.
I do the job because I have found a passion in it, I enjoy the comraderie in the firehouse. I enjoy the comraderie outside the firehouse and the chance to talk shop with other firefighters. I enjoy the ability to make a difference in my community. I take the job very serious, when the fire is out and you make a save or stop the loss, it is a rewarding feeling. I know everyone else working with me is a certified firefighter and not some kid looking to have "fun", the fireground is the place where "fun" stops and business begins.
Also learning for life encourages participation in a direct quote from learning for life's explorer page I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the game I'm playing. Learning for life engourages participation including participation on the fire ground. Thats what its about, being there and doing
You really are making up your own interpretations and no, there is no place, no where in the rules established by the LFL, encourages participation on the fireground, you are wrong. Participation is encouraged by members so as not to be wallflowers and to participate in DRILLS. There is much that can be learned around the station at drills and meetings, demonstrations, but nowhere, nothing indicating one should participate in an actual emergency.
Without actually doing things or being their how are we supposed to learn, because every career fire fighter will tell you being there is different then book work or training.
Why is this such a commonly used excuse?? Gee, you learn just like any other probie who never once was an Explorer, junior, cadet, or got a "start" in the fire service at a young age.....you learn by taking classes, by getting certified, by obtaining the requirements to be a firefighter. Then when you are a recognized adult (18 years old) you can start being a firefighter. There are plenty of people who are great firefighters today who are experts in this job who never once was an explorer on a fire scene, nor never once participated on a fireground before they were hired. There is no reason you need to participate on a fireground to learn the job.
The IC is no place for an explorer because most of the time what the IC says is way above what the explorer needs to learn. IC is dealing with COMMAND issues not tactics and operations
Majority of fireground tasks are basic FF skills which can be learned with meetings and drills, not on the fireground. The drill is the time for one on one interaction and to answer questions and so forth, not the fireground. Sitting with command, one can grasp an understanding for paying attention to the radio. It also gives someone a perspective of the overall picture, not just one side, by understanding what the IC wants, makes tactics and tasks more understandable. Any dummy could break a window for ventilation, it helps to understand the "why". Much can be learned by looking at an overall picture, so that when drill time comes, you learn the tasks.
Your post however dissapoints me, because this is supposed to be a place for explorers to gain information and share information and beliefs in a safe way. Also you make fairly biting remarks towards some of the observations I made, which were completely unnecessary
No, this is supposed to be a place for firefighters, not just to teach kids about firefighting. The realities of this job is harsh and not everything learned comes by teaching with a smile. People like you really do not have a grasp about the reasonings for such responses, you are still very young and naive. This is not a shot, I also was young and eager and couldn't wait to do the job. The difference is that when I was a kid, there was no internet, nor the sense of "entitlement" that one should be on the fireground and uses the internet to try and plead such a case. As I grew up, I realized to slow down and look at the bigger picture, there is much more to being a good firefighter than whining about not being utilized as a firefighter as a child, there is much one can learn, they just don't need to be on a fireground to learn it. There is no reason for kids to respond to scenes in a POV, nor to leave school and so forth.
I really don't care if I disappointed you with my remarks, but I know the realities of this job and the fireground is no place for a child. Despite the harshness of my remarks, my goal is about keeping people safe, which means to debunk many like minded thoughts as you, who believe they should be utilized on the fireground. Much can be done outside the fireground, there is no reason for an extra liability (you) on the fireground.
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Permalink Reply by Andrew on
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Ok. I'm gonna stop fighting. I do sincerely apologize for being a complete moron. I get all rialed up when I feel as if I have been attacked in some way. I know you werent attacking simply stating the facts. I really should take the advice I give guys younger then me and the advice you and Jack gave me, SHUT UP and LEARN. I hope that I haven't overly offended you, and even though we don't really know each other I hope you could forgive me
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Permalink Reply by Gregory L Collins on
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Jack/Dt, anyone who spends time around a department will hear of rifts between paid and Volunteers. Also of Rifts between departments. Dig your head out. This kid wants to learn. When you get OLD wouldn't it be nice to see a young person step up and become a seasoned firefighter. Because as you and I both know, we are getting older. We don't have a Lifetime of firefighting left in our bodies. Show some support for the younger generation. Who knows they may pull your butt out of a bad scene someday.
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John Crabbe, I am a volunteer. I own my own business. I will drop business to go on an EMS or Fire call. Just to make sure our neighbors are safe. Today I donated some time and $ to help our neighboring department by sanding their accident scene, (so icy you couldn't stand up.) This afternoon I took 3 hours for an EMS call. Then back to work. I understand paid guys get more practice time, Volunteers have to dig deep to keep up. I donate thousands of $$$ in time away from work plus improvements to our Department. So lets NOT go there with the kids. I think its Great that they want to learn. Support them don't berate them. If they are lacking in experience TEACH them.
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Great post. My advice is Learn from whoever will teach you. Always have an open mind. Study hard, have HEART. That means when your Tired worn out and you think there is no energy left, DIG down and find more. That is what makes a good firefighter.
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Permalink Reply by Childressfirefighter36 on
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Rather paid or volunteer, or junior, in our department, it doesn't matter. We are there to answer the call, and we do our duties without going at each other's throats. Being a jr/vol. in a small town, I've seen both sides. juniors wanting to act like Captains, and act like they know it all, and don't know the slightest thing. I think all this has to do with atittude, for one, these juniors that I mentioned, were dismissed, because of poor percentage on fires, and came to fire house to play domiones, but never showed any interest. the 3 juniors left, including me, were promoted to volunteers about a year ago. Volunteers or paid, all should be treated the same, I'd rather be a volunteer all my life, than a paid firefighter.
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