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Do You Take an Attack Line In When Performing a Primary Search?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mark Oomkes on
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We have this discussion frequently.
Some of us say there is no way to do a fast, efficient primary search that has the possibility of rescuing someone with a hoseline. A couple others say we have to.
I am one that says no way someone can do a fast primary search with a hoseline.
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Permalink Reply by Alan McGuigan on
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Our procedure is to take in an 1 ¾ attack line when entering a structure fire . Taking a hose line in may slow a crew entering a structure a little because of the effort it takes to pull the line in but that’s about it We have 300 feet or pre-connected line we can pull off the truck all at once, so no time is lost there.
Hats off to those guys that go in without an attack line I am sure that there are a lot of advantages in doing so mainly the speed at which they can get in and do an initial search, but I am sure it puts them at a much higher risk. In my opinion it’s like going in without SCBAs .but that’s only my opinion. We have always taken a hand line in so I have no experience going in without
But taking a hose line in on an initial attack also has some advantages:
• If the initial team going in runs into the fire they can start initial knock down? The sooner and faster you start the initial knock down the better a chance you have to stop the structure fire from getting out of control
• They can penetrate furthering in allowing them to search areas that may not have been accessible because of heat or fire?
• If things go bad it gives the firefighters some chance to protect themselves from fire and heat. It also gives rescuers a line to follow if interior fire fighters find themselves in trouble and need to be rescued the, RIT team can follow the hose line in getting to where they need to go a lot faster!
• The hand line can be used to find your way out if you get lost or disoriented.
• The hand line can be used as a marker if you do find someone you can follow it out and you can follow it back in or the crew replacing you can follow it back in so they know where you stopped
• If your light in staffing it may be some time before the “engine crew Gets there” you may not have enough staff to do both jobs independently so the initial crew may need to do the search as well as eth initial knock down?
Every department / station operates a little different based on their experience training, resources and what they feel best works for them. Our station has always initiated a fast hard aggressive initial attack and it’s worked for us
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Permalink Reply by Gary Stevenson on
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Depends on resources.
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#1, Training. Understanding the pre-cursors of hostile events and understanding that if you cannot survive it then probably the victims you're searching for can't either.
If it flashes and you do have a hoseline, what is spraying 125 GPM in "h3ll" going to do... if your hoseline hasn't been consumed by the flashover? You're going to find out just how little your PPE protects you from steam.
IMO, just as the dangers of vertical ventilation to the not-so-trained, so is search.
There will probably be a lot of passion on this subject but refer back to #1.
Be safe.
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Permalink Reply by NOVAFireman on
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My truck has no pump, no hose, and only carries 5 gallons of water (Two water cans).
I always go in without a hose line, and with forcible entry & forcible exit tools.
Not blasting anyone, but most of the people I have talked to that are against going in without an attack line are usually;
*from small departments in small towns, or rural areas
*from places that don't have a ladder truck, or if they do, use it to hold down the bay floor and take to parades
*fairly new to the fire service
*in the fire service for some time, but without a lot of real experience
Again, I'm not attacking anyone, just pointing out from personal experience.
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Nicely put.
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Permalink Reply by Gregory Borg on
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Quints, one rig cannot do it all. Quints cannot carry enough tools to be a real truck, nor enough hose and water to be an effective engine. What is the quint staffing, 3,4,5 or 6? Less than 5 and you have to decide are we an engine or a truck, first on scene an engine. So what is the point, engines and trucks they work and they work together.
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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We don't have hoselines on our rescues either, but we ALWAYS enter the building with a hoseline... or we are supposed to. The only times firefighters have gotten themselves into grave and nearly fatal danger, in the last 5 years on our job, they have always been in the structure without a hoseline! I was one of those, I followed my officer's orders and entered without one, 5 minutes later when a wall of orange was between me and my crew (that's another story and another poor decision made by the same officer), all I could think was, wow, it would be cool to have a hoseline (of cours only to be used when my crew was located).
Don't put yourself at greater risk. Have a hoseline. It's an SOP here. First arriving is rarely a Rescue.
Edit to say, "town" of over a million and department of roughly 1000 and it is still an SOP. I would have thought those going in without a handline were just not doing the proper training.
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Your rescue arrives first on-scene to a fire in a building call. A lady comes up to you screaming that her 3- year old daughter is in her bedroom. It's through the front door and down the short hall, first door on the left. It's an IDLH atmosphere and the structure is sound. The first engine to arrive was delayed by a train and won't be there for another minute or two. You have all your gear on but don't go? "Don't put yourself at greater risk. Have a hoseline." That is your way and it works for you but I say, risk vs. benefit. SOPs are great but some things should be SOGs.
Good dialog. Be safe.
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Our rescue has arrived first once (that I know of) about three years ago. it was a super busy night, it was the third major fire we had been to and rigs were all over the city, so yes, it is possible. Luckily no one was home, but the rescue was able to get started. Entry was tough as the fire was every where. A pump arrived shortly after, luckily, then we arrived shortly after that as well and were able to make entry and work.
But yes, if the case you mentioned happened, we would make entry and at least attempt a rescue! You do what you have to, right? We do have one rig that is manned by only two members. They have instructions "Not to enter any structure until a second in pump arrives". Smaller pump, but they have handlines and water. Would you enter if grandma or an 8 year old, etc was hanging from a window (well, actually you would ladder, but you know what I mean)... of course we would!
SOP's are hard and fast rules, but just like anything else, sometimes the willow just has to bend!
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Absolutely. But, doesn't always mean always? I know, the willow bends but you wrote always is why I replied with that scenario. My philosophy is that if you can back up your decisions with facts and knowledge then I believe you made the right decision.
This is the way I learned... or was taught. Early on in my career, after every call as a CO I was always second guessed by my Chief. After I took the chip off my shoulder and matured I realized that he wasn't second guessing me but having me back my decision-making with fact and knowledge instead of, "I don't know" or "just because". I think it's made me better but I still have a long way to go.
Great stuff. Be safe.
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*from small departments in small towns, or rural areas
*from places that don't have a ladder truck, or if they do, use it to hold down the bay floor and take to parades
*fairly new to the fire service
*in the fire service for some time, but without a lot of real experience
Edit to say *Canadians and Europeans
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