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Is Race Still a Factor in the Fire Service?
I just read on Stater911 about a FF in Austin TX who was fired for posting naked pics of himself online. He did this on his own time and was fire because it showed poorly against the Austin FD. I don't know if "size" was a factor. But in DC a FF was cooking naked in a firehouse, intoxicated off duty. Nothing has happened and his name has not be given out. Now the reason I bring this up is because 30 African-American FF filed a grievince agianst the DCFD for whites being less punished then blacks for the same instances.
In my time I've people come up and talk to me about issues in thier firehouse from being called nigger or hearing nigger/black jokes to be denied driving privliedges. Just recently I heard of a company that had one African-American and while at the company banquet members thought it would be funny to serve him and HIS WIFE, chicken and watermelon. They came to me because I attended the state and county meetings and spoke my mind. While a member of the Recruitment and Retention committee I tried to have them place our booth at the Hispanic and African-American Festivals besides the state fair. No luck. I asked if companies wanted me to contact loal black churches with them to try to get members no luck.
I don't paint everyone with the same brush. I've had some very good experiences in the fire serivce. I'm, always welcomes where ever I go whenever I say I'm a FF from Delaware. I've had more bad experiences with the public then the fire service but I know there are problems out there.
I ask, "does your company or department reflect your community. Comning from a predominately Black department I'm proud of the fact that we have more white members then whites in the community.
My question is - As you look at your department, does it reflect the community? If not have you approached people of color to get them to join, if so how, if not why. Do you think the members of color are treated fairly in your company or department?
And lastly, do you think there is still a racial issue in the fire service today?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mark Oomkes on
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Give everyone beer and we're all good.
Beer is proof that God wants man (and woman) to be happy. Ben Franklin.
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Yes, it still goes on and always will. It goes on because the chief's make it continue. Things have improved but won't change unless we make it go away.
Larry:
With this statement, you have indicted ALL chiefs. I know for one-myself-that is NOT the case.
Are you actually going to state that this notion of racism in departments is perpetuated by only chiefs?
I disagree on every level.
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Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on
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I'm afraid I have to agree Art. As much as I am NOT a fan of zero tolerance.
Quick back story: My son was sent home from High School for wearing one of my old Military Police T-shirts that had the MP logo of crossed flintlock pistols. They said it was "displaying a weapon" and that under the zero tolerance rules, he had to be suspended. I got the ruling overturned, but it was still a huge pain in the a$$.
But I do agree that it may be the answer to ensuring that the punishments are consistant for each offense, thereby eliminating the possibility of discrimination. (in theory)
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Zero tolerance breeds ignorance and outlaws common sense.
Just look at the hundreds if not thousands of stories of zero tolerance for drugs, weapons, etc in schools.
Kids with butter knives are suspended or expelled. Aspirin is no longer allowed. We can go on and on.
It is impossible to outlaw ignorance and stupidity.
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You're wrong.
Zero tolerance protects those who HAVE common sense from those who DON'T.
And if we read and understand the zero tolerance policy, then we would know that a knife is a knife and a drug is a drug. It doesn't matter if its "harmless" or "over the counter". Common sense would tell you that.
Zero tolerance is how you deal with issues the same way every time with no wiggle room or exceptions.
Where we run afoul with zero tolerance is entitlement. Some think that their interpretation of zero tolerance entitles them to a free pass if they are wrong.
It doesn't work that way.
Zero tolerance doesn't breed ignorance or outlaw common sense.
It is a measured response to violations of the policy.
Period.
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OK then, I can kill someone just as easy with a pen, pencil, scissor as I can with a butter knife. So do why are those "weapons" not banned from schools?
Water is a dangerous substance, a chemical compound just as drugs are. People drown, aspirate, heck, you can even OD on water and die from it. But we don't ban it.
Or how about the first graders who are charged with sexual harrasment for kissing another girl or boy? At first grade? 6 years old?
You're telling me all those incidents common sense was used when suspending\expelling the students from school? If you want, I'll provide links, but you know they're accurate. Just look at Brian's post.
I stand by my statement that by setting zero tolerance policies, common sense is thrown out the window.
As for protecting someone from another without common sense, can you say that nobody has ever done or said something they regretted, apologized for and hasn't happened again, but in your scenario, this person would be punished because of zero tolerance. We all say stupid stuff once in awhile and regret it. Common sense allows us to move on without the world coming to an end.
As opposed to someone who truly is a racist or sexual predator that regularly harasses or intimidates someone of another race or sex. This is where punishment should be applied instead of someone doing or saying something stupid and realizing their mistake, apologizing and moving on.
I agree that entitlement mentalities are where problems arise.
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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As far as department make-up goes, and the whole recruitment issue, in my opinion the fire service nneds to recruit those who are willing to put in the work required to make them a valuable, productive member of the department, period. Regardless of community "make-up", I do not beleive that a target goal to reflect the ethnic make-up of the community is necessarily the best way to build the best possible fire department. Regardless of race, or ethnicity, this buisness requires a certain level of skills and ability prior to entry.
Sadly, the mechanical ability once possessed by so many firefighter recruits is lacking today. When we recruit a target race or culture, just to be politcally correct, we may achieve the goal of employment for certain special-interest groups, but we may have had to lower the standards required to pass certain entry-level tests if that reflects the community's educational status. Basically, you get what you have asked for.
I don't give a rat's behind if it's white, black, or gray. The ability to understand and demonstate the basic skills required to perform at the beginning level of a firefighter are pretty much standard across the board. But let's not forget that today's recruits will be the future Officers. Without the ability and education to advance through the ranks and become profeciant at the level required to understand learship requirments, and command functions, as well as the ability to educate those coming through the ranks...a departments' future is pretty bleak.
This isn't a job for everyone, or anyone, just the same as that apllies to any other profession. There should be NO lowering of any standards in the effort to recruit any particular target group. A career in any profession is not just an award because of you happen to be either the minority OR the majority.
Prejudice is something that can either be blatant, or perceived. In this day and age political correctness has everyone walking a fine line. However we all know the firehouse of yesterday cannot be today's work enviornment. I have seen some pretty innocent gestures turn into full=blown acusations of racism, and yet when the reverse happens, it's just as easy to chock it up as a non-event.
I have worked with females for decades, and fom the beginning it was never an issue with me. Actually was never an isue with any of us. As far as attempting to reflect the department to the community's majoity, that in itself seems prejudice to me.
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How did we get from racism to zero tolerance for same to a discussion that pens, pencils and scissors are "weapons"?
Here is the topic: Is Race Still a Factor in the Fire Service?
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You brought up the concept of zero tolerance for racism.
I brought up other examples of where zero tolerance has gone wrong, very wrong.
Zero tolerance for racism means no more black jokes, German jokes, Irish jokes, Polish jokes, Dutch jokes, etc, etc, etc. Never another one of these jokes.
There's an example of zero tolerance that eliminates common sense. I am of Dutch descent, and I could care less if you joke about my wooden shoes, tip toeing through the tulips, sticking my finger in a dike (notice the spelling lol) blonde hair\blue eyes, being too cheap, being hard headed, whatever. But, in your case, I could view one of these jokes as racist and someone would need to be punished because of zero tolerance.
Common sense is the answer, not zero tolerance.
PS I already answered the question in the positive, because ignorance is and always will be. And that is what racism is, ignorance.
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Simply put, zero tolerence is a double edged sword. Most of the time it works. Then there are those "lack of common sense" times.
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Permalink Reply by Robert Owens on
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Race is always an issue....yes my department resembles the community it serves. We are a mostly white area and we are a mostly white department.
My brothers FD is up to there ears with equality in the work force so much so that the last promotios they did was 2 white males, 2 black males, 2 white females, and 2 black females they basically just picked off the list to make it fair when (and not to be negative just truthful) they had to go far down the list to get the 2 black females passing over several white and black mlaes that were ranked higher.
We really need to get back to picking the best person for the job and get away from color. I do not care if you live in an all black city, if the white guy is the best then he gets the job, if the hispanic is the best then he gets the job. Thats how it should be. All this picking and choosing does is alienate people even further. I do nto think this is what Dr. King had in mind.
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Permalink Reply by William (Chip) Crain on
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Well spoken. Its amazing how people forget history. Some people still do not believe that happen.
I would like to say something in regards to hiring. I believe we have put so much on hiring as some people say "minorities" that we just hire anyone these days because of their race. Instead of actually looking at the person for whom they are. I believe we should hire based on character work ethic and a willingness to learn, but hell if we did that a quater of the personnel would not be working at all.
I think Americans as a whole these days have a poor work ethic and expect everything handed to them. Thats not what this country was founded. Learn your history people!
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