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When Do You Run Out Of Resources?
I was reading about the large amount of fires in Detriot recently and how some incidents had to wait 90 minutes for an engine. I don't but maybe I'm spoiled living in an area with 5 stations within 5 mins and 20 within 15 and 100 within 30 minutes.
As I look at a map of the Detroit metro area its hard to beleive that other cities or towns would not have responded into the city. I also read that this is the first time in 40 yrs Mutual Aid was requested. Hasn't 9-11 taught us anything. Chicago had a huge drill recently to verify communications and get EVERYONE on the same page.
We as emergency responders have a responsibilty to make sure we can keep our citizens safe. Case in point - Conshocken has a HUGEMONGUS fire couple of years ago. Several Del and NJ companies responded for cover ups. Easily a 45 min ride. I really don't se anyone saying "I don't want to travel miles to fight a fire or go to a new fire house" We get a larger response when we go to PA or NJ then to neighboring companies.
But back to the topic. There should never be a fire when no one responds. I might be wrong for pointing the finger at Detroit. I'm sure thier a bunch of great fireifghters and officers. But we need to learn from thier mistake. No one department can handle everything in thier district....NONE. NYC showed it, LA shows it and now detroit showed it. There is no embarassment in calling for help. If I could call for an additinal engine while cutting grass I would. Not calling for sufficent help and burning down a house. buiilding or half the city is embarassing.
But we need to be prepared. What happens after you use up your run card. Is it in the dispatchers hands? Where do you go after ALL the departments in your area have been called. How will you communicate?
So I guess I answered my own question...NEVER, As long as there is a firehouse with equipment and members somewhere in the country you will never run out of resources. Call them, use them.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John on
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We are always told call for mutual aid, then if not needed you can send them home. Key is to always call them at the onset of a big alarm.
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Permalink Reply by Fabulous Heather Days of Summer on
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There are a lot of factors. Budget cuts, other calls, traffic - you get my point.
The news is not always accurate and does not consider all factors. I would be more interested in the size-up of the fire and the timing of decisions and the physical location of each station.
It is just as important not to waste resources and have extra equipment sitting around far away from the ability to help others. In my town, it so large and complex with mountains and mud and common flood zones and closed roads, etc. etc. etc. - it can take 90 minutes for our own trucks to arrive in our own town - on a normal day - no state of emergency needed. (sometimes the only conclusion - if you want us to get to your house faster - live closer to the fire station... and next to good hydrants).
We have an automatic mutual-aid plan, but that is merely a request, dependent upon if the neighboring towns are free. One night I remember we had (my dept was invited to work ) 3 fully-involved structure fires - one in 2 neighboring towns (A & C), one in our own (B). Most of my department was at fire #1 in neighboring town (A) while (C) covered our town, when our town (B) got fire #2 - most of my department (B) left fire #1 to go to #2 with (C). While there, town (C) got called to fire #3, so most of them, and a bunch of my dept, left fire #2 to go to #3. We had SOOOOOOOO many fire trucks brought in and spread around from the 10 neighboring towns that we had mutual come from stations 1 1/2 hours away (driving by car - so you do the math for a truck). Even with everyone in full force, there were still not enough trucks and staff - and we lost 3 houses. But we did the best we could with the resources we had.
When you know more, you do more. When you determine you need more you request more.
I remember on more than on occasion fires where reported by first on scene as flames showing in one corner and less than 10 minutes later when an engine arrived it was fully involved - so was the first on scene wrong in his size-up ??? bldg composition and wind shift are also huge factors which can quickly change a scene
We have to be careful when we Monday morning quarterback.
... just my 2 cents...
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Permalink Reply by EngineLadder on
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Sadly we had this situation the other day we had at one point 4 engines and 1 truck left one of the engines and one of the trucks was overtime personel that was called back to staff closed companies. We do not like mutual aid and I know that I will get yelled at for this. But mutual aid makes the closings of the fire stations work for the mayor. We also do not like mutual aid because all the dept that surround us are not as aggressive as we are in bmore. It was a pretty sad sight watching volly engines from the county first time this has ever happened transfer into the city watch 16 17yr olds. Its not just the fact that we are a union shop. Its the fact that we have different approach to fighting fire the the county around. Its the fact that we also run alot of ems and that some of the volly companies didn't even have an emt on it. We have different training requirements sops...... very sad day in the city thank god DC sent some companies though
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Permalink Reply by Dave Williams on
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"Running out of resorces" should never happen. Being prepared for the unimaginable, yet inevitable incident must be a part of each and every emergency response agency's planning process. As every jurisdiction and most districts are operating with fewer dollars than ever before, the need for increased automatic and mutual aid is upon us now. The plans for how and when we will utilize the available aid need to be formulated prior to the incident occurring. Funding and training for communication interoperability, NIMS compliance, credentialing through Pro Board and other certs all play a major role in achieving seamless mutual aid operations. Once these basic infrastructure needs are met, then it is up to the players involved to work together on the policies, operational expectations, and such to make it happen. The recent incidents in Detroit, Baltimore, and now San Francisco will not be the only examples of the need for greater aid between jurisdictions. I agree with EngineLadder that having inadequately trained personnel placed in a foreign environment, and expecting them to perform as the BCFD companies would, can make for a difficult situation. However, different requirements and SOPs can be addressed through proper planning. As a member of a volunteer company that re-located an engine to a BCFD station Wednesday evening I can tell you that the youngest two members on our engine were career FF/EMT (one an EMT-I) in the metro region, the other three on the crew each had approx 20 years in volunteer fire service with numerous certs, and each has a career in providing emergency services. Therefore, please understand that many (if not most) of the volunteer companies in the Balt region will be staffed with properly credentialed personnel. I think we all knew that the closing of companies, both permanent and temporary would lead to incidents of this nature occurring. On a daily basis, the ripple effect of the company closings and the stress on the system of providing EMS reaches out from within the City to the inner County companies, then to the outer County units, then ultimately to the surronding counties' units. This year the volunteer company I belong to has relocated units to Balt County (as far as Towson and Chase/Middle River), to York County, and now to Balt City. Wednesday was just an example of the same dynamic, just this time it was on the suppression side of the service. It is very different to see the City of Baltimore request aid in this manner, but we have probably not seen the end of it, and should work in cooperation with one another for the safety of our brothers and sisters that will be serving side by side.
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Permalink Reply by M.J. 6821 on
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Personally I don't care if its volunteer or career that we get for mutual aid, I am a volunteer and we get career guys for mutual aid quite often, as long as I get the help that I request I don't care how they do the job that they are given I just want them to do it safely. Every department is different, actually every crew is different. I have seen some crews that are aggressive from one dept to another crew from the same dept be a lil more cautios. In the end we all have the same goals to serve the community and to make it home safe. How we attain the goals is up to the individual person, crew, and department.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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For the life of me I don't understand the US system.
Our CAD system is set up that dispatches the required njumber of resources based on the information taken by the call-taker. Once on scene, you can call in whatever (or cancel) resources you need.
You call for 6 pumpers, the CAD calls in the designated 6. It's automatic. If you're on a call, the next available resource is autmoatically called.
Having a system that relies on someone having to make the call based on what they feel like or want is flawed and is a lawsuit waiting to happen IMHO.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Weber on
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I don't know how it works anywhere else other than my little corner of the world but I can tell you how it works here(NW PA).We have mutual aid preplans for our own coverage areas(townships,boroughs,cities).The one big incident that comes to mind is a refinery fire we had in the area in 1995.We were on second alarm on a three alarm plan.Before it was over we had every dept. in the county at the refinery with at least one unit each(most of us had 2 or 3).We had units from neighboring counties standing by for just about every dept.Nobody hesitated to call them and none of them hesitated to come,although most of them needed directions because they had never been where they were going.We(our dept.)made sure we had somebody at the station to go with them if we had another call so they knew where they were going.The system worked better than anybody thought it would.
I can see in this day and age of budget cuts and station closings and relocations how having enough help could be a real problem.
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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We've travelled 60 miles to mutual aid departments on large structure fires. We sent a brush rig 400 miles to a wildfire once. Chief says, "If someone calls we will respond." You're right, Craig. No one should ever run out of resources, period.
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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It does help Luke that we only have two fire services in the State and both, with all stations, are on that one CAD. Back in the bad old days we too had seperate organisations all over the State, communications were non-existent and so was co-operation. And of course the separate organisations from all the separate towns (and multiples in single towns too) fought against the amalgamation - thankfully they lost so the public now gets what it deserves.
As has been said below, we too travel anywhere. Other States need extra? They ask, we send, and the fact that vehicles have been sent interstate is also recorded on our CAD. The system knows where every vehicle in the State is sitting.
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I'm struggling with why we can make it happen and others can't.
Is it about ego's, power plays, or a legislative issue? I dunno....
The system is not perfect but it seems a lot easier to work with.
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As I read, I wonder is it always lack of resources or is it lack organization of resources or lack of knowledge of how to implement resources ???
I was thinking about Hurricane Katrina off the South Eastern Coastline of the United States 5 years ago - people rescued and placed in the Super Dome in Louisiana were not taken water for 5 days.
What it that the entire United States had NO water to share?
Certainly members from each fire department across the country were not gathered to go help within hours of the devastation.
I often feel like people take the "it's not my job" attitude or in our case "it's not my state or my district or my problem."
There is always going to be some type of emergency that can not sufficiently be planned for - Haiti Earthquake. The hospitals, police station, fire stations, government offices, and food and water sources and most managing staff (died) crumbled.
Louisiana (and Mississippi) is still a wreck with more than 140,000 people being unable to return to the region.
Haiti still does not have clean water and medical care - people still daily die in the streets - while the rest of the world goes about their business as though human beings are not in danger.
How sad to live in a world where this is so - and where resources (of all types) are wasted in places like storage facilities instead of used to care for people.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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Some people want to keep their sandbox to themselves....its almost like they have a deep dark secret to hide....I guess they would rather burn everything down than to ask for some help.....
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