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"Canceled Enroute"
This is for opinions on volunteer companies/departments and there apparatus being canceled enroute routinely.
I was a volunteer Chief, I understand the safety concern of apparatus being on the road in both emergency and nonemergency mode. I used to cancel apparatus enroute often.
I am currently a black hat, and in a totally different department, and I am becoming discouraged quickly with being "canceled enroute" more times than not. I am second guessing my decisions I made with canceling units enroute for moral reasons.
Should the apparatus be allowed to continue to the scene with no lights and sirens?
Does it effect the moral of firefighters to be canceled more time than not?
If it does not sound like a "good call" do less people show up because of being canceled so much?
Is it really a safety hazard to have the apparatus on the road in nonemergency mode?
Let me know what you think!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jason Thomas on
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I to was a Chief at my old department but had a much different theroy than my new department at my old station i would never cancel my units I would slow them down but not cancel. Now that I am sitting as black hat I get very annoyed whenever I waste my fuel to get the fire station just to be told to hang out, I say if your volunteers come out to help let them proceed non emergency of course. But over the long haul I think the numbers of people responding to smells and bells will drasitcally drop if they continue to be canceled.
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Permalink Reply by Marty O'Connor on
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Jason I agree, and the whole fuel comment I feel the same way....that crosses my mind almost every time pager goes off.........thanks for your reply.
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Permalink Reply by Shareef Abdu Nur on
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In my area, all of the departments are low on manpower. We do alot of automatic responses for big boxes. If we arrive on scene and see that it's something that we can handle ourselves, we cancel all other companies responding so that we do not deplete the area of resources. I do not feel slighted or have low moral when it happens to me, because we all share the same mentality as far as keeping some companies in service. Calls do not stop coming in because we are already at a fire.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Why would you keep apparatus coming if it's known they are not needed? What's being suggested is that since people made the effort to get to the station they are entitled to a joy ride? I can understand that being woken up and having to get to the station only to be canceled somewhere along the line can be frustrating, it's the nature of the beast but it doesn't seem practical to keep the assignment rolling.
It seems more likely that the way your alarm assignments are structured is in need of some tweaking. A car fire with no exposures or an odor of something doesn't require a structure fire response. Limiting the call to an initial assignment means that most people (apparatus) don't have to respond.
As for the fuel issue, if your people are traveling a distance to get to the station then you should consider a mileage reimbursement program with a set dollar amount per call. It is allowed by the IRS, is not considered pay and compensates your members for fuel and vehicle wear and tear. Anywhere between $5-10 is considered fair compensation and meets IRS guidelines.
If the membership consensus is "Don't bother me unless it's a real call" then you've established (or allowed to be established) a system whereby people can pick and choose their calls. This becomes one more way that volunteer departments vary from paid ones. As a paid firefighter, you win some, you lose some and some are rained out but you dress for all the games. Sounds like your people don't want to dress unless they know they are going to play. Not a good system.
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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If I don't need the extra resources, I cancel them. If I am the apparatus responding and you don't need me, cancel me. My feelings aren't hurt either way. Even if we are canceled on the way to the station, we usually continue to the station in order to get credit for participation.
Doing both Fire and EMS, sometimes the medics cancel the engine on an MVC, only to have it called back out because the vehicle decided to dump all over the roadway while being picked up by the wrecker. I do get a little perturbed about that. I have also in times of low viability continued my response to utilize the apparatus as a "crossing gate" to protect the ambulance crew.
But these incidents are infrequent and in general, all of my crews both Fire and EMS do a good job of determining whether to cancel additional apparatus or not.
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Thank you Lindsay for your reply I see your points, I feel like I should not be thinking the way I am...but its frustrating to me.....
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Permalink Reply by Chief Dino on
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Our SOG is to request mutal aid for any structure fire between 7 and 5 pm, mon to fri. Grass and woodland fires we will size up before calling mutual aid, unless we have information from dispatch that structures are threatened. We typically can only man one engine during the work week, but 6 of us work in the neighboring towns and can leave work if toned out. For me that means a 14 minute drive to the station at the speed limit. Nearest mutal aid is 15 minutes drive time. Our goal is to have as many resources moving as early as possible and on scene within 20 minutes. If we don't need them, we'll cancel them. I'd rather cancel an engine 10 minutes in knowing I didn't need it, than have to call for aid after 10 minutes and wait for it. As for allowing the engine to continue to the scene, why?
Shawn
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Jack hits the nail on the head, so don't need to repeat the sentiment. There is no reason to keep rigs and people rolling when there is nothing going on. The resident, business owner, taxpayer, doesn't really care for the attention the same way you do.
Oldman hits a good point of responding to the station to receive credit for the call. This is how we did it when I was a volly.
I also agree with Chief France in allowing the first due rig to respond to obtain information etc. This is how we do it as a career dept. If cancelled enroute, fire alarm with proper code to cancel, the first due pump will still respond non-emergent to obtain information and is responsible for the NFIRS.
There is no reason though that everyone needs to respond because of "morale" issues, false alarms and cancelled enroute are part of the job.
Now, the issue may be in who is doing the cancelling. If it is a chief or officer on the dept, then don't complain about it. If it is another dept and you are going in their district, don't worry about it. If it is another dept or agancy like EMS or police and the incident is in your response area, then send a single apparatus non emergently to get info or just to ensure the situation. If you are called out, a NFIRS should still have to be done and the police and EMS won't be doing that for you, so send a rig to. There isn't a need to rush in lights and sirens or having multiple rigs "check it out", but contact should be made and a NFIRS filled out.
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Permalink Reply by Forsaken Firefighter on
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See we get disregarded so often whether it be dispatch not knowing of a controlled burn, dispatch sending us to the wrong jurisdiction, or EMS saying the we are not needed. The problems with this being we burn our gas to get to the station, we drop what we are doing to answer the call just to get disregarded, and we give our time to hear you are not needed. I respond ether way yet the problem is not every one does due to 80% of the time we are disregarded. I can see where Jack is coming from but remember we are VOLUNTEERS meaning we GIVE our time so we can chose to what calls to respond to. Now when people get disregarded all of the time they do not see the need to respond to get sent home again, and when enough people feel this way then you only have a few who do show up. We rarely have more then 4 personnel show up for any call and if we need more it takes upwards of 3 tones to get them there. Now I am not saying keep all units rolling code 3, but run code until a unit can look at the situation and if there is no need for the emergency response then down grade the other unit but let them continue. I hear how our guys talk and I know it does take a tole on them being disregarded, if not for the fact that they took there time to respond it make them feel as if we are not good enough to do the job because we have issues around here with the city guys who do not like the fact that we are here and try to take our call when ever they get the chance....
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Permalink Reply by Derek R. on
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I dunno. Maybe I'm seeing things a little differently than some.
I joined the volly brigade to serve my community and help relieve or reduce the stresses of tragedy that fall upon the citizens of this community. I did not join to see how many calls I could respond to or to get some kind of adrenaline rush from other people's misfortunes. So to be cancelled in mid-stream means absolutely nothing to me. I turn around and go back to what I was doing. And if I don't get credit for a call, then so be it. It only means that someone residing in, or passing through, this area is alright. That whatever the call was for is downgraded to the point where manpower or medical aid is not necessary is good news for the community.
Picking and choosing calls is, in my opinion, wrong. Unless you are on the other side of your zone, and it's a medical call or cat in a tree, I can understand not going. But to choose which average call you respond to is, well, maybe something I don't understand. You join a volly dept to help those in your community; why is one person's emergency not worth your time? Just because it's not "the big one"?
Anyway. This is just MY take on things. Kinda looking foreward to more replies to this topic.
Should the apparatus be allowed to continue to the scene with no lights and sirens?
---depends on the nature of the call
Does it effect the moral of firefighters to be canceled more time than not?
---shouldn't, but I guess it does
If it does not sound like a "good call" do less people show up because of being canceled so much?
---again...shouldn't, but it is what it is. The way one person sees the fire service may not be the same as the next person beside him/her.
Is it really a safety hazard to have the apparatus on the road in nonemergency mode?
---I, personally, wouldn't think of it as a safety hazard. More of an inconvenience if you happen to get a call on the opposite end on your call area. If you're running quiet and fallowing road rules, then I don't see it as a hazard.
KSHF
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Permalink Reply by Michael Meadows on
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I've been cancelled as much or more often than I've made it to calls. I don't mind getting cancelled enroute it just means that others have the situation at hand and it's not such an inconvience. One should not look at the volunteer service that way. Sure there are times that tones drop and the timing couldn't be less perfect. Case in point had a car fire toned out while I was in the bathtub this morning. Still made the truck and extuighed the fire safely with a crew, and smelled good when I got there LOL. Point is sometimes tones drop and you get there, sometimes you don't. Just do the best you can and go on. That's all you can do.
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Permalink Reply by Jason M Albert on
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Our Chief has the policy of of never fully cancelling responding apparatus. He will designate 1st unit in to respond under caution. Which is turn off your emergency lights and sirens. He will also hold all other units at stations. Our department doesn't really see many members picking and choosing calls, we usually get a good turn out regardless. As far as effecting the morale, if an individual finds more excitment in responding to the "big" one over responding to an old lady who locked herself in the bathroom, then in my opinon your in the wrong business. Our Department is all volunteer. You joined for a reason to help the community. If you wait around for the "big" one and don't respond to the others are you an asset? Besides we all know the best stories always come from the cat in a tree, lady in the bathroom, or the town drunk stuck in a manhole! As far as having the apparatus on the road being a safety hazard, is it a hazard for on the road driver training? I feel even if the call is non -emergency it is always good practice. You can sit in a classroom and read book after book on firefighting but every situation and call is different. The basics are the same its how each are applied. I know I'll get blasted but these are my observations and opinions. Volunteers, are just that volunteers; and the calls they respond too should be the one they CAN repond too. If they are getting discouraged over BS calls, and cancelled calls then why did they join. If its for fame and glory, like I said befor, wrong business.
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