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If this post is already in firefighter nation please share the title so I can take a look. I was not able to find anything while searching past forums.
This has kind of bugging me for awhile. Now I dont know if this is just a east coast thing from New Hamshire to Virginia or if it happens all over the country (never traveled much). But I drive through these downs everynow and then and all of a sudden I have a fire truck or an ambulance coming up behind me quick, lights shining but no siren. Companies coming up to intersections maybe 15 feet before them then they turn on a siren. Shouldnt it be if your lights are on and your going to a call you should have the siren going whether its 1 oclock in the afternoon or 3 in the morning. I mean because if firefighters get in an accident or someone doesnt pull over for them in the day time they complain that the person couldnt see or hear the fire truck coming. But at night what happens? These fire trucks going all out to calls late at night with just lights going through intersections and past cross streets without any sound at all.
Just want to find out what other peoples thoughts on this are.
Should we listen to towns people when they complain that our lights and sirens woke them up at 3 am and the chief decides that we cant run with our lights going or does your department just say screw it and turn it all on for your safety and everyone elses on the road?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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I can't speak for other states, but here in WI we can drive with just lights and no siren, however, traffic laws must be obeyed. If we do respond this way, it typically is late at night or early morning. Turning on the siren when approaching an intersection does give a warning to any cross traffic and does allow the rig to go through a light or stop sign.
IMO, I don't feel it is necessary to run sirens in the middle of the night or early morning with little to no traffic, I personally don't care to listen to the thing when there isn't traffic to warn. Having the lights on does give those few drivers the warning we are responding and that they should pull over, we will hit the siren at an intersection as described above.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Meadows on
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Kentucky state law states that if you have lights on you must use sirens. Only exceptions would be for an ambulance if the siren would cause stress to a patient or law enforcement for tactical reasons. That's the only exceptions to the rule that I know of.
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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Texas requires siren when lights are used. There's "no such thing as code 2 anymore" in Texas. It only makes sense to give as much warning as you can for your own safety. We once asked ourselves if we wanted to wake the neighbors when we roll out of the station at 3am. My opinion was and still is, "Heck, we want the neighbors to know we're busy doing something."
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Permalink Reply by Fireyladd - Retired Chief Sharp on
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A few years ago we stopped using the sirens in the night actually after 10pm until 8 am. We did this because of courtesy to people sleeping. However, if we are approaching an intersection or around other cars we will hit the siren for the intersection and to advise the other cars. When we are in neighborhoods around homes we do not run the sirens just as a courtesy.
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Permalink Reply by Jonathan on
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We respond code (lights and sirens maximum 10mph over posted speed limit, if absolutely necessary take on oncoming traffic lanes/turning lanes) until the first arriving unit informs all others to either return or go code 1 (lights only, and resume regular traffic regulations). Although after midnight we will run just lights until right before coming upon an intersection, in which case we will hit the siren to alert traffic (of course we still come to a complete stop, we even slow down for a green light just in case). We have a rule that regardless of the type of call, we still obey traffic laws and drive at a reasonable and safe pace. If we don't arrive to the scene, then we're of no help to anyone, and if we get in an accident then we have become part of a bigger problem.
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Permalink Reply by Sparky3317 on
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Thank you for the posts everyone. Its interesting to see how different areas of the country operate and how the laws of the DMV change from place to place.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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This is a pure judgement call, left up to the responding company officer. In situations where there is heavy traffic, or the possibility of someone not seeing you in time to respond, one would think that sirens would be used. Now if you are talking running a siren at three in the morning when there is not traffic, that's a different story. To answer your question I would have to say that your common sense has to be the guiding light here...
and while folks are thinking about sirens... in regard to POV installation or even fire apparatus... FYI... CBz
Approvals or certifications
Most governments have standards for vehicle-mounted sirens. For example, in California, sirens are designated Class A or Class B. In non-technical terms, a Class A siren is so loud it can be mounted nearly anywhere on a vehicle. Class B sirens are not as loud and must be mounted on a plane parallel to the level roadway and parallel to the direction the vehicle travels when driving in a straight line.
Sirens must also be approved by local agencies, in some cases. For example, the California Highway Patrol approves specific models for use on every emergency vehicle in the state. The approval is important because it ensures the devices perform adequately. Moreover, using unapproved devices could be a factor in determining fault if a collision occurs.
Best practices
The worst installations are those where the siren sound is emitted above and slightly behind the vehicle occupants such as cases where a light-bar mounted speaker is used on a sedan or pickup. Vehicles with concealed sirens also tend to have high noise levels inside. In some cases, concealed or poor installations produce noise levels which can cause permanent hearing damage to vehicle occupants.
Siren speakers, or mechanical sirens, should always be mounted ahead of the passenger compartment. This reduces the noise for occupants and makes two-way radio and mobile telephone audio more intelligible during siren use. It also puts the sound where it will serve a useful purpose. Studies in some agencies operating emergency vehicles show sound pressure levels over 120dba in the passenger compartment. In one study, a specific vehicle's engine sounds and the siren produced sound levels over 123dba in the passenger compartment.
Electric-motor-driven mechanical sirens may draw 50 to 200 amperes at 12VDC when spinning up to operating speed. Appropriate wiring and transient protection for modern engine control computers is a necessary part of an installation. Wiring should be similar in size to the wiring to the vehicle engine starter motor. Mechanical vehicle mounted devices usually have an electric brake, a solenoid that presses a pad of friction material against the siren rotor. When an emergency vehicle arrives on-scene or is cancelled en route, the vehicle operator can rapidly stop the siren.
Multi-speaker electronic sirens often are alleged to have dead spots at certain angles to the vehicle's direction of travel. These are caused by phase differences in speaker wiring. The sound coming from the speaker array can phase-cancel in some situations. A crude, static test for dead spots is to apply white noise from an unsquelched F.M. two-way radio to the siren amplifier's auxiliary input then walk around the vehicle making sure the sound doesn't have any unexpected nulls.
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Permalink Reply by Jay Nicholson on
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In a rural environment, a person in a closed car proceeding at 55
miles per hour (mph), with the radio playing, may not be aware of
a penetrating electronic siren (wail) until it is as close as 33 feet
away.
I copied this from an nhtsa-evoc class. 33 feet is nothing at 55 MPH.
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Permalink Reply by Raymond Herington on
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I am not sure about my state, but in my county I am almost positve that all safety vehicles, POVs, and apparatus must run both lights and siren. I'm pretty sure here in Michigan you must run lights and siren.
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I know its nice to be courtious and let the neighborhood sleep but would you rather the towns people like you knowing your not waking them up or keep your job if you get into an accident at 3 in the morning. Because if your not following the law its on you.
And as for the hearing protection I completely understand not wanting to kill our hearing earlier than most of us are going to lose it anyways.
Thank god they are making trucks with headphones these days. It makes for a quietter ride and you can actually hear the radio and know whats going on. (if you are a department lucky enough to have funding for new apparatus that is)
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I know its nice to be courtious and let the neighborhood sleep but would you rather the towns people like you knowing your not waking them up or keep your job if you get into an accident at 3 in the morning. Because if your not following the law its on you.
Lights and sirens alone will not prevent you from getting into an accident.....driving defensively and with DUE REGARD will. There have been countless accidents even with lights and sirens because the driver was going too fast for conditions, speeding, not slowing or stopping for red lights or stop signs, too fast around curves, and so forth. Of which it is quite hard to find an accident which occurred strictly because lights were used without sirens. Too many people get a "siren" rush and feel the need to go faster and so forth than defensively.
Having the siren on with every call will not prevent an accident from occurring, even when responding with lights, sirens, bells, whistles, stobes, reflective stripes, whatever, many people still fail to see or hear these until we are right on top of them. The simple fact remains that DUE REGARD and defensive driving will prevent an accident, not a reliance on the noisemakers and light displays.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Ralph, at 59 degrees F at sea level, sound travels at about 761 mph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound). How is is possible for a vehicle traveling at 55 (or 60, or 80) mph to travel faster than sound? Just wondering.
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