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Decision Making at Vacant Structure Fires- Are You Brave Enough?
Fire Engineering has a good little article thsi week about vacant structure fires, questioning are we brave enough to stay out?
It's a quick read but raises some good food-for-thought questions about our decisions to go interior or not. Check it out at http://www.fireengineering.com/index/articles/display/9407237913/ar...
A read through many discussions in these and other forums seems to split the firefighters- some saying you HAVE to go interior to be a firefighter, it's what we do, etc, to those who say, no way- my (or my crews) life safety takes priority.
It's vacant, it's confirmed that everyoen is accounted for, why do we need to go interior if it's unsafe (or potentially unsafe)?
We must continuously risk assess the scene and change tactics based on what we see, hear, smell, feel, etc. You're no less of a FF if you decide to stay exterior....
It's a quick read but raises some good food-for-thought questions about our decisions to go interior or not. Check it out at http://www.fireengineering.com/index/articles/display/9407237913/ar...
A read through many discussions in these and other forums seems to split the firefighters- some saying you HAVE to go interior to be a firefighter, it's what we do, etc, to those who say, no way- my (or my crews) life safety takes priority.
It's vacant, it's confirmed that everyoen is accounted for, why do we need to go interior if it's unsafe (or potentially unsafe)?
We must continuously risk assess the scene and change tactics based on what we see, hear, smell, feel, etc. You're no less of a FF if you decide to stay exterior....
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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It's vacant, it's confirmed that everyoen is accounted for, why do we need to go interior if it's unsafe (or potentially unsafe)?
Are you discussing a vacant structure and a fire where people are out and say there is nobody inside? To me there is a difference. A vacant you really don't know what is going on, do you have squatters? people too high on drugs to realize what is going on? is this a drug house, meth lab? are there hazards inside being stored? Are those who are saying the structure is vacant appear as honest? Is there a history of recent fires in vacants? What are the conditions present at time of arrival?
Now I agree with the article and the issues raised out there and don't think a vacant structure is worth the life of a firefighter, but it does really depend upon conditions present on arrival, it depends upon response of companies (staffing) and so forth. I don't agree that we should just go in regardless, but I don't believe you have to be outside either just because it is a vacant. Vacants are a different animal and tactics can be based on the side of more cautious and more thought out than say one with confirmed victims or reports of possible people trapped.
As I mentioned, I do think there is a difference with a structure said to be vacant and one where a homeowner can account for everyone. Again the scene will dictate tactics and it doesn't mean we should just rush in, but again, just because the place is said to be empty, I don't see that as a reason to just sit outside defensively.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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Thus why I say the risk assessments will help dictate what tactics we employ. The risk assessment needs to take into account all of the factors you mentioned and more.
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Permalink Reply by ashfire on
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I look at my neighbor's house next house over from mine. She was just removed from it by my fire company and the police because she had not eaten in days and didn't turn on her heat and was using a candle to save electricity during a major snow storm. She wouldn't let anyone help her and she would threaten anyone that tried. There was a hole in the floor near the front door and other places in the house and signs that may show someone else was sleeping in the house with her.
The county is about to condemn the house and the woman's family is having it torn down to prevent her from coming back but what if someone is squatting in there if it catches fire. The houses are so close that they will have to be water screened and if the fire is in a section of the house and the crews can be certain no one is inside.
They maybe able to check from the windows except the attic is like a second story of the house.
I think some of her seven children used it as a bedroom when they lived there.
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Permalink Reply by EngineLadder on
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I work for a juristiction were there are alot of vacants, and a large number of our fires are in vacant rowhouses you might have an entire block that is vacant exept for one house in the middle of the group if you do not go in and put the fire out you burn the whole block down. There are also alot of homeless were I work so we do not concider anything vacant
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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My area has many UNOCCUPIED dwellings and businesses due to the seasonal nature of community, being a seaside summertime resort. A VACANT usually indicates uninhabited/abandoned,or otherwise in disrepair. Unoccupied means (to me) an otherwise inhabital property that may be unoccuopied for the season, or while owners are on vacation. Some of these seasonal homes may give the appearance of current inhabitation.
However, the community should takes steps to ensure these VACANTS are sealed off, and routinely checked for the seal to be in place to HELP ensure transient/homeless, or indigent persons cannot occupy them. Having said that, there is really no way to be sure, especially since some of these places are attractive to teens and others who desire to use these places for party's, etc.
We simply cannot be sure. However, although we are responsible for life and property, we cannot take unnecessary risks to our lives simply becouse there are those who choose to circumvent the law, and instead break in, and enter in order to facilitate some clandestine activity.
IF it can be searched, REASONABLY without taking risks we may take going to the extreme for KNOWN occupants, then we make the search. If not, and conditions go against logical survivability chances, for US and them, stay out!
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I think it's importnant that we assess every scene on a case-by-case basis. No department or member should have a policy (written or unwritten) or mantra that says we must go interior on every fire. It must be carefully assessed.
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My departments area has very few vacant buildings, and those that are, are mostly commercial structures.
Would anyone have any reasons to treat these differently to vacant residential structures? Size up and circumstances aside, any general rules to consider?
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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Are you brave enough for what? To potentially make a life changing/ending decision to enter a structure that does not need to be entered, or are you brave enough to surround and drown? Which takes more stones?
There are so many variables at play. What is the construction? Let's use light weight, I beams, and roof trusses, fire has been burning for 20 minutes, home is guaranteed vacant. Exactly what are you saving?
Let's use the same scenario, grandma might be upstairs. Are you going in the front door, are do you have multiple crews setting up ladders, vent-enter-search and back out the way you came; on to the next window.
Scene size up. Life safety above all else, of course, but if a structure is untenable due to heat, fire load, etc, what are the odds you will find a live victim?
Too many variables to make one decision. Brave enough to man up and be safe is what I would love to see more people do, instead of cowboy tactics and the old, "save the building at all costs." Live to fight another day.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Davis on
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Another thing to consider with vacant structures: clandestine drug labs. Most of the time the drug labs are rigged with all sorts of obsticals, false floors, and insendiary riggings. Not having the knowledge of the structure that the local police have as far as criminal activity, you may be walking in on a death trap. In a lot of urban area vacant dwelling fires, the local drug trafficers set up make shift drug labs and then once finished with their production, torch it to cover the evidence. You, the unsuspecting firefighter gets on scene expecting a basic squatters fire are met with all sorts of explosive/hazmats.
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Permalink Reply by Adam Gillis on
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if its vacant and confermed that its vacant then there is no reason to go inside of it when its burning
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Permalink Reply by Justin Blythe on
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i agree with adam. my department is mostly volunteer so usually when we arrive, its usually gone as it is. But if its unknown if anyone is inside, if our IC sees its safe, we go in, but i say if you have any doubts at all, is it worth risking one of your lifes for an unknown.
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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This says it all really "We must continuously risk assess the scene and change tactics based on what we see, hear, smell, feel, etc. You're no less of a FF if you decide to stay exterior.... "
Dynamic Risk Assesment. Don't be tied down to any single mode of operation. Think.
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