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Permalink Reply by Russell Sing on March 1, 2010 at 10:19am

We did research it before we purchased it. I am doing a more in depth research before it is put in service. It will be awhile before it is put in service. I am going to be going into several classes on PPV/PPA. It will be put in service after the dept. is all completely trained.

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Permalink Reply by Brian Mackie on March 1, 2010 at 10:27am

Thanks for your reply. I was beginning to think maybe I had lost touch with reality or had missed something along the way. We all know that all departments, have to make due with what we have. Its nice if everyone could have the best tools, the best apparatus etc available all the time. But what about the rest? Perhaps (obviously in this case) the leadership is not fully certified or they are inexperienced, or not trained etc or all three. How many times, especially on small town depts. do we see officers (chiefs, captains etc) with only a few years of experience. These people are the ones tasked with keeping the crews safe. Safety Officers - not just a title, but a very very important role, and involves so much more than simply putting on a vest and making sure the guys have their turnout gear done up right, or have checked their equipment! If they don't have the right training, or knowledge to do that, really they have no business being in charge. You are right that many many rules of live fire training were ignored.
I truly wish this video would get more exposure than it seems to be getting. How many times does this scenario unfold at the real deal? Absolutley correct that had this situation been a real call, and those guys were preparing to do a primary search to get victims out, it would have been a lost cause. There would be no civilian survivors in that home. How scary is that?
Wake up ladies and gentlemen. As good as we think we are.. there is still much work to do.
Thanks Kriss for your comments.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Harkey on March 1, 2010 at 11:11am

I got a copy of the book Positive Pressure Attack for Ventilation & Firefighting from fire engineering, co-authored by Garcia, Kauffman, and Schelble. It has some really good research data and useages for PPV. You might check that out. www.fireengineeringbooks.com I think this is a great topic for discussion and will keep following the posts.

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Permalink Reply by Kriss Garcia on March 1, 2010 at 11:44pm

Thanks for the compliment,,,teh book is the best base knowledge of information with the newest information in our articles on posirtivepressureattack.com,,,Hope to start on the second edition soon
Thanks Again,,

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Permalink Reply by Michael Harkey on March 3, 2010 at 5:57pm

I just hope to see some training availible at the local level on PPA. I read as much as possible, but I am a hands on guy!!

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Permalink Reply by Steven C. Hamilton on March 5, 2010 at 9:29am

Chief, thanks for pointing out my mistyping. I was trying to make the point that it takes 90 to 120 seconds for the fan to effect the building and the fire. After the fan is placed and the exterior vent is established it takes approximately 90-120 seconds before the fan can have a positive impact on the fire. During that time the thermal layering is disrupted and high heat level are brought to the floor. After the 90-120 seconds the floor becomes clear of heat and smoke. Any victims that were at the floor level may have been negatively affected by the ventilation efforts.

And unfortunately I disagree with you on the complexity and labor intensiveness. Depending on the situation, such as a room and content fire, I can and have attacked the fire and started hydraulic ventilation with limited personnel much faster than using PPA. I do not need personnel to establish an exterior vent or have someone place a fan. I get the impression Mr Sing belongs to a volunteer department and may have limited staffing and manpower at structural fires. I agree that with 3 Engine Companies, 1 Ladder Company, 1 Rescue Company, and 1 Chief PPA can be done relatively easily. But 80% of the fire service is comprised of volunteer departments that do not have those numbers. They can not designate a company strictly to ventilation.

Additionally, PPA training can only be perfected on live fire scenarios. Most volunteer departments do not have those types of resources. Videos and death by powerpoint can not teach PPA effectively. I stand behind my suggestion to Mr. Sing and his department to utilize the fan for smoke removal. PPA requires more personnel and coordination to perform on the fire ground than traditional attack methods.

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Permalink Reply by Shareef Abdu Nur on March 5, 2010 at 9:40am

From a Truck Co point of view, the PPV fan is an excellent tool but like all other tools it has limitations and applications. The one thing that I can sincerely recommend is training with the PPV fan and it all comes down to coordination between interior and exterior crews. Our way of doing is to do establish one exhaust point(open window, back door, roof access hatch in a stairwell, etc...), secure all other openings, and wait for the call from the Eng Co that they have a knock on the fire and that they are ready for the fan).

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Permalink Reply by Don Zimmerman on March 8, 2010 at 11:12pm

There is a ton of info out on the internet and training as well on the benifits and uses of PPV. It is the way to do business. It is safer, it is more effective, and allows for the interior FF to get a handle on the problem without having to beat their heads against the walls. The best example in 30 years I have is, when I was a volunteer we had a fire in a house in the back 2 bedrooms. We had the fan to the door running but 90 degrees off angle, with charged line, with guys on the roof, they louvered the roof, broke the ceilng, radio to make access, we turned the fan into the door creating a cone around the edges of the door, and all the smoke went poof!!! out the roof, we crawled in and realized the heat was gone too, stood up and dragged line to the fire, steamed it out and suppress the fire, and the steam went out the roof, fire was put out all the way, and done, total time maybe 5 minutes from entry to extinguisment. The fan when turned into the door created the most perfect tunnel in the smoke and just kept pushing it out the roof.

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Permalink Reply by Kriss Garcia on March 9, 2010 at 5:49pm

Russel
I know it is a different magazine ans sponsor however we have done a lot of work with Fire Engineering We have a simulation and a webcast on their website
Good luck start slow and if you do nothing more than follow our sample SOP on positivepressureattack.com you probably cannot go wrong. We made it very simple and almost fool proof.
Let me know about you first success

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