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Positive Pressure Ventilation Good or Bad
Hello all,
My department just got a PPV fan. I am responsible to do research. We are not going to put it in service until I have done research. I am wanting to get info as to the good and bads for PPV. All info would be helpful. I also am needing to know where if any that I can download some FREE videos on PPV.
Thank you!!
Russ
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Anita King on
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Russell we got some really good info. from the following website:http://www.fire.gov. They offer some free training dvd's that will give you a lot of insight into the pros and cons of PPV, as well as the right way to set up and use them. The DVD is a good trainig aide, and like I said it is free for the asking.
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Permalink Reply by Larry Curtis on
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We have been using pos-pres-vent for years and we found that it works great. it cools down the area your in and helps your vision, you are able to clear a home faster and help by having less smoke dammage, but the situation varies on different types of scenes, so the best is to train and see how different types of senerios behave. I agree with Mr. Crabbe you can go to( www.positivepressureattack.com ) and get some info.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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asking this question is like asking what door do we go in through......it all depends on the situation that you have on hand....the first thing you need to learn is that all situations are NOT alike.....Paul
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Permalink Reply by daniel smith on
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Mike I have used positive pressure attack in live fire training burns and it seems to work well. There is a couple of things that we noticed in our trials. we waited until the attack crew was on its way into the structure before we began ventilation. The fire had to be in a room with a window or opening to the exterior so that we can push the fire out of the structure and not extend the fire into other rooms. It seemed to help well with visibility and interestingly sped up fire suppression!
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Permalink Reply by Kriss Garcia on
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Russ,
Good news regarding your fan purchase, bad news about training. It is hard to find good training curriculum. Most major publications of fire essential books obviously steer clear of the subject. I don't know of a tactic that has been scientifically evaluated more than PPA/PPV, yet no publication has taken this on. I have been doing this and researching it all over the country as well as Europe and Australia and have found that if done correctly it is fabulous and safe. If you do it wrong you can make things worse. The problem is that it works so well that you can do it wrong 100 times and get away with it 99 times. Not to sound self-congratulatory however take a look at our website positivepressureattack.com. There you will find a dozen or so articles of our and thousands of pages of data generated by NIST and others proving it's effectiveness. I Would also have to steer you to an article I recently did in December Fire Engineering. It is on the precautions of PPA/PPV. This article is also on the website as is a very basic SOP that if followed will allow you to start using pressurization without hurtin ganyone and without burning anything down. Good luck let me know how it goes.
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You are right, There is nothing on the apparatus other than water than will change the fire situation for better or worse than a fan. without being able to easily burn acquired structures any longer education and training is difficult. Start slow, take a look at the SOP on our webiste positivepressureattack.com and you wont go too wrong or too fast and get in trouble. If they hurt someone or burn something down you might as well bolt in on the apparatus because no one will use it for years.
Thanks for the good reply
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Steve, some of what your saying may have some misinformation in it. First the fire pressurizes the building, you fan does not. If you turn your fan into the building prior to making an exhaust you are creating a convection oven that will make things worse inside. Please take a look at NIST.gov for appropriate research and remember they get a little higher temperature than we say because in order to keep the test parameters the same they limit the exhaust size. do not turn a fan into the building without an exhaust. If done correctly and with a little training it does not increase the complexity of the scene nor is it more labor intensive, the opposite is true. Thanks for the time you put into responding to the discussion and looking at positivepressureattack.com may give you some better information. Strange that a tactic that is used more than vertical ventilation has so little subject matter curriculum to support it. We are trying to have IFSTA or Delmar take the lead but as of yet are running into some impediments.
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When looking at U-tube footage look at he area above the cone of air that the fan is creating. In all videos of this going bad it is because of the lack of exhaust. This will be evident by the flame or black non-clearing thick smoke over the top of the fan because there is not enough forward exhaust.
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Permalink Reply by Brian Mackie on
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Hi Kriss.
While I don't know everything there is to know about PPV, I will agree that it CAN be a very useful and effective tactic. It can also be potentially life threatening if done wrong. Have you viewed the video? I thought it was a terrific video showing PPV,that is until I noticed the exterior operations in the rear. I almost crapped my pants, when the crew advanced! It was not long before my predictions of a flashover were realized! So what exactly was the final factor in the development of the flashover (which could have been kept in check by using other interior tactics) the exterior operations- driving the heat and gases back into the A side, or the introduction of high volumes of fresh air from the pp fan, or both?
Am I missing something here? I would appreciate other comments about this.
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I have, If it is the one I am thinking of it was a training fire in small white house. The particulars of this is that they violated almost all precautions we talk about in our writing. they had inadequate exhaust away from crews and they also violated the rule that if you do not have PPA working at the beginning of the attack you should not put a fan into the building until interior has confirmed that they have the fire under control. In an ongoing study of our we ask firefighters about the probability of a victim surviving who is in a building when fire attack is underway. Data we get back is that unless you have ventilation working not being worked on and water is applied to the fire, anyone inside has less than a 2% chance of surviving. If this is the case and it is, anyone inside the building not dressed and protected just like you and I is most likely not going to survive, so slow down and at least make sure we don't do something that will place us into the heart of a very aggressive fire environment.
I could not be in more agreement with you in that how someone can put this into operation without proper education and training is beyond me.
Thanks for you response,,lets keep getting the right word out.
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Permalink Reply by Russell Sing on
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We did do some research before the purchase. I am doing a more indepth research before we put it in service. I have to do the research for training purposes. We will not be putting it in service until all personel have been trained and understand and can demostrate the correct way to utilize the tool.
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Thank you!
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