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PPE....Extrication
Any agencies wear Wildland PPE to Vehicle accidents ?
It seems like a wildland jacket is a lot like those "extrication jackets" everyone sells now ?
It seems like a wildland jacket is a lot like those "extrication jackets" everyone sells now ?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Fireyladd - Retired Chief Sharp on
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No, we wear our structural PPE. Wildland gear dosnt afford the protection structural fear does.
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Permalink Reply by Reg Mathis on
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Nope, standard turnouts for us. And as has been pointed out, the extra protection afforded is the reason.
TCSS
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Reg,
I know from experience that turnouts get sliced up working wrecks. Does your department have an immediate gear replacement policy for turnouts that are damaged working wrecks?
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Jim,
I'm interested in your reasoning here. There are some agencies who routinely wear forestry gear specifically for extrication. The rescue squad in Knoxville, TN and some of the fire-rescue departments in the Chattanooga area routinely wear wildland gear to MVCs/extrications in order to lessen heat stress. They've never reported a serious problem and actually like the fact that the gear is lighter weight, less bulky, and more comfortable.
Some of the West Coast departments that primarily do wildland and EMS/rescue work primarily wear wildland gear to wrecks with the same reasoning and similar safety records.
Neither structural turnout gear or forestry gear is really designed for working extrications.
Wearing gear that's not purpose-designed for what you're doing is a set of trade-offs, no matter what gear you wear.
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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I am afraid this will almost become "beat the horse" discussion.
Old school says; full structural bunker gear - for protection. Protection from???? While the structural gear has a vapor barrier which might lessen the chance of blood borne pathogens, it is bulkier, hotter, and much more expensive to clean and or replace. Offers slightly better protection if the vehicle catches on fire, slightly better, because you wouldn't normally be wearing an air pack.
Newer school says; a "wildland" type of gear is better because it is lighter weight, not as bulky, and less expensive to replace or launder. It is fire resistant and does stand up well working around sharp objects such as thorns or broken glass.
I have and do use both. I prefer the lighter weight of the Nomex wildland gear, and as Ben said, they can get cut up. I also like the fact that if there are fluids on the ground from the incident, I don't have to worry about wearing contaminated structural gear inside a fire should one occur after picking up after the incident, and that has happened many times.
Lets expand the discussion to include what a couple of departments in my area wear, which is an extrication jump suit. Basically nothing more than wildland gear with extra pockets and striping, but it is sold as a rescue type of gear.
I really don't think there is a clear answer, and I also don't think one is "stupid" for wearing one or the other. If you follow what ever your department SOG's say, and at least wear something, (I've seen people wear street clothes), I'm not sure it really makes that much of a difference.
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Permalink Reply by larry jenkins on
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My department issues this gear to all rescue squad personnel for extrications. At 1st ,like anything in the fire department, we don't like change. But, over time it seems to be working. Unless you have a fire hazard the gear works great. It does protect you from sharp hazards. During the summer on extended extrications the lightweight stuff is best. The only drawback is you have to carry two sets of gear on the rig. You may argue if the vehicle catches fire there could be a problem/ We always have a charged hoseline with firefighters in fire gear standing by for this. Think about it, does your EMS personnel wear full gear? Ours don't because of dexterity.
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Hey Ben,
I don't know if you could call it "immediate", but we do have a loft at the training center where replacement gear can be "borrowed" until a new replacement is delivered.
As I said, we wear our interior gear(per SOG) when working an extrication. If we wanted to use Wildland gear, we would have to purchase it ourselves.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Outside of one lengthy extrication most of ours are relatively quick with the patient(s) out in 15 minutes or less. The ones that have taken longer are typically fatals. While I can appreciate lighter, cooler gear for an extrication, in my experience it is impractical for FF's to respond in extrication gear with their turnouts on the rig.
Either loose gear or gear bags require space which, at least in my engine is hard to come by. Also, there have been calls where we were dispatched for an extrication only to be re-directed to another call. Now you have an engine crew in extrication gear rather than turnouts.
I've been involved in extrications in mid-summer and it is indeed hot. Certainly no less hot sitting on a hose line. But unlike a fire scene where all personnel are working we often have another crew standing around. There is ample opportunity to swap out with another FF. As for damage to gear, it is sent out immediately for repair and replacement gear is available when needed.
I understand that other departments operate differently and have different call volumes. If most -or many- of the calls are mva's on a highway and you have a dedicated rescue crew available then by all means use extrication gear. On the other hand if most of your calls are local road mva's with the occasional late night high speed impact it doesn't seem to warrant the extra gear. But like so many things it really boils down to you departmental SOP's.
One final consideration, if you purchase your own gear you had better make sure that it is both NFPA compliant and approved (and documented) by your department, otherwise you may find any workman's comp claim being disallowed. If comfort is an over-riding concern you might want to reconsider firefighting. I understand surfing can be quite comfortable.
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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What a great comment - "If comfort is an over-riding concern you might want to reconsider firefighting.". Comfort can equate to safety, in this matter I think it does. Full structural PPE at an MVC in summer? Very silly idea here. Except for the people on standby if there's a risk of fire, we try to wear wildfire PPE. The same as wearing structural PPE at a wildfire in summer - very silly idea here and actually in breach of SOG's.
Notice how I use the word 'here'? Denotes that different places have different needs. Many people don't use the word 'here' in posting, but it can be implied from the content. Is that what you meant? That people considering comfort (safety) in your FD should perhaps get out of firefighting? Or are you including all of us?
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Tony P,
Don't presume to lecture me nor get snarky with regard to the statement you quoted. For reasons I don't get (and could care less about) you seem to have taken personal insult from my statement.
Please re-read what I wrote. In no way did I make any over arching statement about who should do what or where it should be done (but I am getting some ideas presently). I referenced what my department does and some generalities.
"Full structural PPE at an MVC in summer? Very silly idea here." I'll pass your comments on up the chain of command. Good to see that you at least are not the judgmental type. I thought I had explained my reasoning.
"...wearing structural PPE at a wildfire in summer..." I know I didn't write that nor did I suggest it. I was addressing the issue of structural PPE at an mva. I think you got off task on that one.
I stand by my statement, if comfort is an over-riding concern you may very well be in the wrong profession (that was the general reader 'you', not you specifically). Firefighting isn't an especially comfortable job but I shouldn't be lecturing you on that, I'm sure you're well aware of it. Regardless, I will try to make it a bit more clear the point I was making: We would all like to be comfortable but crawling into a hot smokey house isn't the place to find it. Nor is it necessarily found on the side of the road cutting up a car.
If I have a choice of being safe or comfortable, I'll go for safe. If I can get both effectively then all the better but in the long run, I'd rather be safe. Finally, your statement, "very silly idea here and actually in breach of SOG's." seems ever so much like my comment, "But like so many things it really boils down to you departmental SOP's."
I guess in the final analysis we are both on the same page, except you thought it the better route to be snide about it.
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Permalink Reply by Derek R. on
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It's our SOP to wear structural at an mva unless you are not directly working on the vehicles. If we do somehow get it damaged, it gets sent away immediately to get fixed and we are immediately issued replacements until ours come back. As for comfortability?....My gear fits me pretty good and am not uncomfortable at all in it. So that's not an issue with me. I've worn structural gear working an mva in the hottest of summer and, frankly, didn't have a problem. It was a bit sweaty, sure, but you get the same result crawling around inside a structure on fire. So, for me, I'm not seeing issues with wearing structural gear on an mva. It's added protection and you have it with you if you get called to a fire.
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It's a matter of safety and if it's comfortable then all the better. We use the gear and the guys like it. I have about 10 miles of 3 major interstates in my 1st due. We run into long extrications with tractor trailers on top of cars. I'm on a engine company now, so I don't get directly involved with the extrications but the guys who wear the gear like it. They can last longer when they are not over heated, it safe. My county also has VA-TF1 and those guys wear fire retardant coveralls, not running gear.
Lets use common sense here, if there is a low chance of fire then why not use something lighter. Any extrication should be protected by charged, manned hose lines. I have run thousands of vehicle crashes in 36 years and only a hand full have caught fire after we arrived. The charged hand line always took care of the problem.
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