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To Force or Not To Force?
So you are responding to a fire call, dispatch states caller sees smoke coming from the furnace room of his apartment complex, no flames. You get on scene, 16 unit apartment complex, type V construction, (one of nine other similar buildings) nothing showing, first in engine goes in to investigate. Resident opens the complex door for FF's and proceeds back upstairs, no fire alarm going off and people still in apartments. FD tells people to get out and activates the alarm. Radio reports initially state the furnace room is in the basement, there is no basement, then a report states the caller is in an upstairs unit.
FD goes upstairs, further evacuating residents, no smoke, slight odor very faint, furnace room upstairs is clear, laundry room is clear, another furnace room through the laundry room is locked, but door is cool. Resident who called FD is asked where he saw smoke, he points to door across the hall from him, when asked if anyone is home there he says no and proceeds downstairs to leave.
Door to apartment is cool, nothing shows up on TIC. The knox box is located on another building of the complex, not the unit reporting smoke, keyholder is 15 minutes out. So what do you do? Do you wait for the keyholder, wait for the keys from the knox box (which may not open the individual apartments) or do you force the door?
FD goes upstairs, further evacuating residents, no smoke, slight odor very faint, furnace room upstairs is clear, laundry room is clear, another furnace room through the laundry room is locked, but door is cool. Resident who called FD is asked where he saw smoke, he points to door across the hall from him, when asked if anyone is home there he says no and proceeds downstairs to leave.
Door to apartment is cool, nothing shows up on TIC. The knox box is located on another building of the complex, not the unit reporting smoke, keyholder is 15 minutes out. So what do you do? Do you wait for the keyholder, wait for the keys from the knox box (which may not open the individual apartments) or do you force the door?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Smoke Eater on
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Could you have the next in unit stop and get the key from the knox box? If not, and the door remains cool and nothing showing up on TIC, then I would wait for key holder.
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Permalink Reply by blair4630 on
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It would never be my call because I'm not an officer, but here's my thoughts. Based on what you said, I would opt to wait and observe, but if there was supposed to be someone in the residence, that would be a different story.
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Permalink Reply by David Fletcher, CFPS on
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Personally, I would wait for law enforcement to arrive as long as there is no smoke seen. They could then take responsibility for the apartment's security after the door is forced. I would want to be pretty sure that it was necessary before forcing it. Maybe a ladder to the apartments window would be a good move too.
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Permalink Reply by Justin Scott on
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how many people do you have? if you have enought man power you could send someone to the box if its not that far away to get it, if not i would just monitor to see if conditions change and await the arrival of the keyholder, but if anything changed i wouldent hessitate to force it open, would rather replace a door than an entire apt
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Permalink Reply by steve crump on
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If the door is locked, how did he see smoke coming from the furnace? Why was he in the apartment? He needs to be asked this questions, and also detained (if you can do it safely by talking until police arrive). If he was in the apartment before he may have keys to get back (maybe watching someones pet). When you arrive on scene 1 person should allready be headed to knox box. Also know your polciy, here apartments have a master key for all apartments (granted sometimes they dont) but most time they do. The condinser (how ever u spell it) can but out massive amounts of smoke before the breaker is thrown.
Is the breakers in the apartment , or seperate room, need to look at preplan if you can while enroute.
Just a few questions to determine on if to force or not. At this point wait for keys, if none of them fit, I would gain entry with out damage if your able to. A few suggestions,Ladder to window to look inside if u have to a shove knife will open almost any window lock. Pry the jam away from lock if cheap doors an locks. What makes me nerveous is the fact he seen smoke from a furnace from a locked apartment. Ok its early going to get a second cup coffee now
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Permalink Reply by Shareef Abdu Nur on
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If I could I would request the next due company to stop and pick up the knox box keys, if not I would wait for the key holder.
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Permalink Reply by Andrew Dalgarno on
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I agree with most so far...Unless the situation changes, I wait for the key.
Get ladders up to all windows in the suspect apartment. Instead of just one crew standing outside the door waiting for something to change, get crews into the neighboring apartments (sides, top, bottom) if those residents will give you the key that is. Of course, this depends on manpower, but now you're observing on all sides.
Interview the caller again: Color of smoke? Smell? Exactly where? Was he in the apartment?
Infrared camera to look through the doors/walls.
Don't just stand around though...Did the power & gas get shut off yet? These could be feeding the fire. Another sweep of the building to make sure everybody is out. Get hoselines in place in the hallway, up the ladders and hooked up to the standpipes. It's easier to put stuff away after than try to explain why it wasn't ready in the first place.
Andrew
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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So far so good.
Some more info to consider...
There were some recent fires where upon arrival the hallways were clear, the apartment door was cool, but there was a fire inside the apartment, one being an unattended cooking fire, another being electrical and fire was in the cockloft, found after crews were investigating for about 10 minutes.
The windows to the apartment in question had the blinds down and closed preventing a good view inside.
A tripped breaker is noticed for a water heater.
Just to address some comments. While this was a scenario that occurred, the basis is for discussion, learning and to think, use your own dept staff level and sog's.
TIC is used, nothing shows up, but again there is a faint odor in the hallway, unknown if a fire is small and in another room, growing while waiting.
Shutting off gas and electric could create issues. Nights have been getting below freezing and it could take public service some time to restore all services and relight all pilot lights. This is still investigation.
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I agree, get stuff going. If it turns out to be nothing...good training, so next time when it is something people are a little more prepared. Plus the good side you get to show the people of the apartment complex that you are ready to take action....
I seen a captain take a couple days off with no pay for standing around an waiting cause he had ran to the place so many times for a false alarm, this time he took his time, cancelled people before fully investigating, the whole time a broken sprinkler head on the 3rd floor was flowing hard, he even started to leave the scene an mark it up to another problem with thier system.
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Well, we have been told not to rely just on our "toys". We also have to use our senses. I would say try to get a ladder to the window around the back and see if you could pry the window open and get someone inside to confirm working fire or false alarm. I guess I would actually have to be put in that position to see what I would do. I mean how faint or strong is the odor?
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Blinds on the windows may be drawn, but you may still be able to see the flickering of flames around the edges or between slats on verticals/venetian blinds. I still say get someone up to those windows!
The tripped breaker for the water heater is interesting. Most apartment buildings around here do not have individual water heaters in apartments. There are large heaters in the mechanical room. Find out where this water heater is and go investigate. (Unless of course it's in the apartment, then we are back to square one again!) Might be related, might not...you won't know until you go looking.
By now the remaining apartments have been checked, so it's just the apartment in question that we are unsure of. Since the odor is back again, the keyholder is not on scene yet, TIC didn't show anything, I say it's time to get into that apartment.
Andrew
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Ok I'm confused here:
"caller sees smoke coming from the furnace room of his apartment complex,"
"Resident who called FD is asked where he saw smoke, he points to door across the hall from him, when asked if anyone is home there he says no"
It appears we've gone from a furnace room to an apartment?
If caller actually means smoke coming from the apartment, then it would make sense to make entry. Doors are cheap enough to replace, on-site maintenance will take care of that. What if the occupant is down on the floor from a medical or other situation? Since you never know what tenants will do or have to me it makes the most sense to enter the unit and investigate. It's not unheard of for renters to (illegally) have kerosene space heaters or outdoor grills used indoors. Both fire and CO are a real threat.
If it turns out that the caller actually meant the furnace room again, make entry. Doors are cheap. Too often here I see us do the same thing, pussyfoot around simply because the department does not want to 'inconvenience' the homeowner/tenant. Isn't it our job to investigate? Better to be wrong but thorough than right but too late.
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