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Old Timers
damnthing's post left me thinking and that is a bad thing...
So my uncle and mentor in the fire service retired from the department I grew up in a little over 2 years ago.
When I was not old enough to climb up on the tailboard without a boost, my Uncle Rick was a firefighter.
He wasn't a "career" firefighter as we know them, but he was a career volunteer. I cant remember a holiday that he didn't rush out the door to a call somewhere in our small town, and that was pretty cool to me.
By the time I was old enough to join, as a junior in 1983, Rick had been on that department 14 years and was an Asst. Chief.
Now, I didn't want to join at 16, but it was a family thing and so as not to dissapoint, I joined.
I did everything I could to get out of Monday night meetings, but usually Rick would just give me that look and off I would go. Most nights it meant rolling hose, or replacing the sooty stuff with the ones drying on the stairwell. (You really need the visual to understand) So, while I was trying to get out of going, I cant remember a meeting in all those years that Rick missed, unless he was at College Station for training, or in the hospital dealing with the Crones issues that made his legs look like pepperoni pizzas.
Rick, never missed a meeting, a call, or a fund raiser in all the years I was growing up, and when I made the leap to a paid department, he was the one who shook my hand and said "make us proud". Us was the volunteer fire service...
My uncle continued to do this until 2007 when he retired with almost 38 years in Aledo VFD.
In the last years his department had changed drastically, along with the town I grew up in. Aledo was no longer a 600 resident town, it was now 10 times that and encroachment from Ft Worth will soon make it just another suburb, surrounded by the big city.
I wish that was all that had changed, but it wasn't. The department has grown to the point of adding a second station. The department has many paramedics and almost all firefighters are EMT's and if not certified, at least trained to the point of competency. The department is a good one and the envy of every other department in the county, but...
I returned to Aledo in late 2005 and rejoined the department I left at 21. Few of the members even knew who I was other than Old Rick's nephew. The fact that I had more seniority in that department then most of the young certified guys escaped most but the few older ones.
I was just the down on his luck guy that rick brought with him to meetings.
Rick knew his limitations and when we had a major accident, he would show up with his pickup and red lights, block the stretch of road and wave a flare to warn motorists to slow down. He didn't attempt to get in the middle of an extrication, or tell anyone how to do their jobs, but he was there.
When I would sit around talking to some of the old hats, I would hear young guys asking why that old man still came around. What good was he? Was he even certified?
This is where I have an issue.
Our old timers are good for the department. Good for the new or young firefighters who learn the history from, to understand where the department came from to reach this point.
Rick knew he wasn't capable of fighting fire anymore, but he also felt a sense of camaraderie with every firefighter in that department, no matter what they thought of him.
When Rick chose to retire in 2007, he was given a wonderful AXE and a nice speech from the Chief who grew up learning from his as I had.
So...do 60 or 70 or 80 year old members need to be fighting fires or riding the apparatus...no. It isn't safe for them or others.
But, they do have a place in our houses.
We have to treat the pillars of our fire service with respect and dignity. These are the ones who sweated and bled for the towns we live in, years before we were even alive. to treat them like tottering old fools is an insult to not only the older firefighters, but the brotherhood as well.
So my uncle and mentor in the fire service retired from the department I grew up in a little over 2 years ago.
When I was not old enough to climb up on the tailboard without a boost, my Uncle Rick was a firefighter.
He wasn't a "career" firefighter as we know them, but he was a career volunteer. I cant remember a holiday that he didn't rush out the door to a call somewhere in our small town, and that was pretty cool to me.
By the time I was old enough to join, as a junior in 1983, Rick had been on that department 14 years and was an Asst. Chief.
Now, I didn't want to join at 16, but it was a family thing and so as not to dissapoint, I joined.
I did everything I could to get out of Monday night meetings, but usually Rick would just give me that look and off I would go. Most nights it meant rolling hose, or replacing the sooty stuff with the ones drying on the stairwell. (You really need the visual to understand) So, while I was trying to get out of going, I cant remember a meeting in all those years that Rick missed, unless he was at College Station for training, or in the hospital dealing with the Crones issues that made his legs look like pepperoni pizzas.
Rick, never missed a meeting, a call, or a fund raiser in all the years I was growing up, and when I made the leap to a paid department, he was the one who shook my hand and said "make us proud". Us was the volunteer fire service...
My uncle continued to do this until 2007 when he retired with almost 38 years in Aledo VFD.
In the last years his department had changed drastically, along with the town I grew up in. Aledo was no longer a 600 resident town, it was now 10 times that and encroachment from Ft Worth will soon make it just another suburb, surrounded by the big city.
I wish that was all that had changed, but it wasn't. The department has grown to the point of adding a second station. The department has many paramedics and almost all firefighters are EMT's and if not certified, at least trained to the point of competency. The department is a good one and the envy of every other department in the county, but...
I returned to Aledo in late 2005 and rejoined the department I left at 21. Few of the members even knew who I was other than Old Rick's nephew. The fact that I had more seniority in that department then most of the young certified guys escaped most but the few older ones.
I was just the down on his luck guy that rick brought with him to meetings.
Rick knew his limitations and when we had a major accident, he would show up with his pickup and red lights, block the stretch of road and wave a flare to warn motorists to slow down. He didn't attempt to get in the middle of an extrication, or tell anyone how to do their jobs, but he was there.
When I would sit around talking to some of the old hats, I would hear young guys asking why that old man still came around. What good was he? Was he even certified?
This is where I have an issue.
Our old timers are good for the department. Good for the new or young firefighters who learn the history from, to understand where the department came from to reach this point.
Rick knew he wasn't capable of fighting fire anymore, but he also felt a sense of camaraderie with every firefighter in that department, no matter what they thought of him.
When Rick chose to retire in 2007, he was given a wonderful AXE and a nice speech from the Chief who grew up learning from his as I had.
So...do 60 or 70 or 80 year old members need to be fighting fires or riding the apparatus...no. It isn't safe for them or others.
But, they do have a place in our houses.
We have to treat the pillars of our fire service with respect and dignity. These are the ones who sweated and bled for the towns we live in, years before we were even alive. to treat them like tottering old fools is an insult to not only the older firefighters, but the brotherhood as well.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Fireyladd - Retired Chief Sharp on
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Allen, I fully appreciate what you shared. I didnt grow up in a firefighter family. However my kids did. When I joined in 81 we had many old timers around then. And like you said there was respect and awe of these guys. I spent many a eve listening to them tell stories and tales of their experiences and fires. They are all gone now and some look at me as if I'm an older guy on the Department. My Asst Chief has been doing this for 40 years. He is very capable and physically still able to do what ever needs to be done. His leadership and support is a rock to me and others on the Department. I have been doing this since 1981 myself. I sure dont feel like an old timer. At times I feel like I am from a different world because kids today seem to have a entirely different view on things then the way we came up with. The key is to find common ground an converse at that level. As Chief I strive to find the happy medium to interact and still be Chief. I do not want to let go of the line guys feeling myself. I came up from their ranks and strive to continue to understand their needs and thinking. The Old guys are important. We need to honor and hold them in esteem. They have paid the price to hold that position. Some literally. As you so well stated, they arnt going to continue to put out or fight fire. However, they can continue to support the Department in other ways. Their stories and tales are important to those who come behind them to understand why we are the way we are. Well said Allen.
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Permalink Reply by Jake Fireman on
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Allen, what a wonderful, thoughtful recollection of your uncle and his time on the job. I'm sure that brought back some very good memories! Also thanks for sharing about your time, and both positive and negative feelings toward the department.
It's hard for me to address some of your issues. I am career and in a large metro area. I think my whole county only has one vollie company.
I DO agree with you. Old timers , such as your uncle DO have a place. He was acting as a concearned citizen and he did a great job. I hope he has the opportunity to do that type of work in "conjunction" with the fire department for a long time to come.
Stay low
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Permalink Reply by Allen Wahlstrom on
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Jake, thanks.
Actually I'm sure you have guys pushing retirement who the younger guys see as inferior to them in both physical ability and modern training/certs. The biggest difference is a mandatory retirement age that is not upheld in the volunteer sector.
Rick doesn't really spend any time around the department now, but still has many a story to share...
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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The perenial question about the 'old guys'. Is it an issue? Definitely. One of the biggest issues we have with it (not in my Brigade, but certainly in my FRS) is that for some Brigades all they have is the oldies. There just aren't any younger people who are both available and willing to volunteer. Things don't look good in some of those tiny country communities. Solution - I don't know one. Could they be made into career Stations? Not feasible really, career firefighters in an area with less than 20 calls a year? These are usually Brigades that are twenty and more minutes from their nearest support Brigade as well. Right out in the country. As I said, I don't know a solution for them.
Older members in a suburban situation? I'm one of them. Am I as fit as the younger members? Not as fit as the 20 year olds but definitely as fit as som 40 year olds. Am I as agile, as flexible? Yes, more so than a few of them (at least my years of martial arts training had one good outcome). Am I as up to date as the younger members with training and certificates? Yes, more so than many. Should I give it all away just because I'm 60?
I am aware of my usefulness to the Brigade. I have retired from the workforce and I'm one of the regular daytime responders. I do the internal work, easily. I climb onto and into roofs. I climb up and down off our wildfire pumper as easily as anyone else. Will I be just as able as the years go by? Of course not, there will come a time when I say 'enough'. I'm sensible, I know myself, when the time comes I'll become a driver/pump operator only, or control point operator, or retire, whichever suits the Brigade and my needs the best.
I've seen volunteers who I've thought shouldn't be active members, whether due to age or other reasons. I've seen career firefighters whose actions seem to indicate that they should have retired or will hopefully retire soon. Is it as simple as putting an age limit onto service?
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Tony, great response.
You made me think of a firefighter I worked with in Georgia who would regularly go out and outperform the Army Rangers on their own confidence course. He came to firefighing late in life and retired in his late 60's still fitter than most of the 20-30 somethings.
I think an age requirement is similar to my BMI. As a rule of thumb it is pretty good. But, it does not fit everyone as my BMI says I am obese (30.5) while I ride 150 miles a week, lift at least 2-3 times a week and have a resting heart rate of under 60.
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Ah Allen, the good old BMI. My younger son is also classed as obese. He also trains and lifts weights three times a week. My sons and I are built on the stocky side. Wide shoulders, broad chests, you know the style. Me though? I'm carrying too much weight, started putting it on in the Army (the food was too good!), built up the upper-body doing martial arts for years, and the belly is just me. I used to ride 90+ kilometres a week and eat well - lost no weight at all!
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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And remember that the reason that they lived to be "old hats" is because THEY listened to the "old hats".
You want to talk about old? Let's go. I'm 56 years old. I am a card carrying AARP member. I get senior discounts at golf courses, but I won't hit from the senior tees. I hit from the white. I am a voracious reader. I love reading about the newest technologies and new product info. I know more about it than the current members of our department. I still read about tactics, command and the how-to stuff. I read as many reports on fires that I can in a day. I review LODD reports. I have remained CURRENT and if I had to or were asked to, I could perform TODAY at a very competent level.
We need to know about the past. I have many stories that I am willing to share anywhere/anytime.
But we can't LIVE in the past. We have to keep pushing our fire departments forward.
You cannot do that if you don't know where you came from. You have to understand and respect the history and traditions of your fire department and the fire service.
The "old guys" have earned and deserve every ounce of respect that you can muster.
They are still there because they have a bond that is as strong now as it was when they first joined. And they may not know that it is "their time". They have been doing it and feeling it for so long, that it is as natural as putting on their pants in the morning.
They DON'T deserve to be the object of ridicule or of the demands to get off; they're too old crap.
When people reach that point where their mind and body won't let them perform at a productive level, then they deserve a party; not a termination letter.
Let them retire with dignity. Show them some respect. It's not that hard and it's not asking too much for someone who has given the better part of their life to their community fire protection.
IMHO.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Melissa Eastwood on
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Our department lets our older firefighters direct traffic, get tools off of the truck, etc. This keeps them out of harms way.
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DT:
It HAS been mentioned in the past.
Some departments don't seem to know what to do with the older ones.
I was trying to remember the oldest LODD on record. I think it was 83 years old.
A couple of years ago, a department close to us lost a 73 year old.
He was struck and killed by a motorist while he was spotting a fire truck that was backing out onto the highway.
The point of Wally's post is that Old Timers deserve a place at the table. And I agree.
I don't believe in mandatory retirement. I believe in mandatory medical clearance of any fire department member. And when you can't pass it, you can't actively participate...at any age.
Not to change the tone of the thread, but there are plenty of younger ones in TERRIBLE physical shape that pose just as much liability as that 60-something. Agreed?
TCSS.
Art
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Art, I am glad you got the point of my post.
We have got to treat our old hats with respect and admiration for their service and brotherhood, but we have also got to find a place for them that does not endanger themselves and or others.
How we do that is the point of my post.
Is it age?
Is it a physical that says it is time to go?
I cant respond to that, but I believe there should be a standard age, albeit one that a waiver signed by a department approved physician can alter.
If the age is 57 as in our case, there is no waiver, unless you came in too late to get a hard 20 in the department. Then on your 20th anniversary, you are retired...period.
Vollies are not quite as restricted in their retirement mandate and if one can pass a stress test, and meet all the physical requirements to do the job, sign them off for a year. And retest the following one.
There are plenty of men in their 60's who are fit enough to do the job, and I fully agree with you on the young firefighters who cant get up from the recliner without being winded. They are as big a hazard as the old hat who is fit.
I was not exactly one of those last fall, but was getting close and did something about it.
We all need to do something about it...
TCSS
Wally
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DT:
And I am not advocating a free pass for vollies.
The mandatory retirement ages that exist in this country are set by the fire departments/unions.
There is no federal, state or local law that requires anyone to stop working at a specific age.
You say that it's embarrassing to read about an LODD for a 70 year old. And I say that I feel complete and utter disgust when I read of 30 year olds dying when I know that it could have been prevented with a yearly check up.
My point is that as long as there are no physical limitations of a person, they why not continue to use them in some capacity?
Not everyone over the age of 65 is driving their car through the front window of the DMV on the day that they are there for a license renewal.
I mean; Cloris Leachman is 80 years old and she was "Dancing With The Stars".
It's ironic that we are often chastised for using a broad brush/broad strokes when describing a fire service issue. I cannot do it here because it depends on many factors.
You find it embarrassing. I find it sad that we would have to enlist the help of the Blue Hairs because we can't fill the ranks with young recruits.
I don't think that the departments where this is occurring has a waiting list.
But, I DO see your point and you pose a valid argument.
I had enough sense to step down when my legs wouldn't cooperate anymore.
Some refuse to do it out of a sense of belonging, duty or loyalty.
It's admirable, but risky.
TCSS.
Art
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OK so where do we go with this?
What governing agency oversees ALL firefighters in the US...NFPA. OK so Sort of...
Art, who do we need to work with to get a standard set that would remove older members from line service, but allow them to remain members...sans gear?
I mean what are we on here for if not to come up with common sense solutions to issues effecting the fire service in general.
There does come a point where we dont need to be doing this anymore...just when is that point?
A bigger question is recruiting new young members into our volunteer service?
Eventually we are going to age ourselves out of a volunteer fire service, or at least severely inhibit the volunteers end to the point of inefficiency.
I have no delusions that my opinion or thoughts will change the fire service, but we have a large enough forum here to at least get the ears of those who can.
So let's realistically try and figure it out...
TCSS
Wally
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