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One for the Glow Worms
This as come about during our last drill, and deals with separation of hot, warm and cold zones. This is 101 stuff right. We have a decon truck, back of the truck is hot, truck itself is warm, and exit is cold. I’ll attach a couple of pics, its designed for ambulatory and non, does that not confuse everyone, anyways back to my question. You’ll note in the pictures that hot and cold join, or are very close, just looking for ideas to do this better. Note; flow is from back to front.
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Fire Training10-04-08 0203.jpg, 181 KB -
Fire Training10-04-08 0272.jpg, 202 KB
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Fire Training10-04-08 0362.jpg, 197 KB
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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I like the system but with such a short distance between your "hot" and "cold" zones it's almost not correct. Your Decon Unit should be set up in the warm zone. If you are parking in the warm zone to set up decon your members have potential to be contaminated with a quick wind shift. Parking your apparatus in the hot zone and then suiting up is even worse. What if you get a wind shift that engulfs your apparatus in methylethyl bad shit? Does your department have the capability to have enough to 1. Decon your contaminated members 2. Provide a new wave of Decon members for the incident your at and 3. Have the ability to fully Decon your apparatus?
You may want to rethink this. Park the truck in the warm zone with the exit near the cold zone. (not in the cold zone) Having it near the cold zone will allow a final inspection for full decontamination to be made to ensure a second wave of Decon isn;t necessary.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Burley on
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I think you'll be better off this way. The truck should be the seperation of the warm and cold zones entry into the back from the warm zone and exit out the front into the cold zone....the hot zone is surronding the actual product, container or problem with distances recommended by the CHRIS or whatever manual or program your using.
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Permalink Reply by Trainer on
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Tactical decon is usually separate and set up for personal doing the R and R. Hears the thing, when we get called, it rolls with 2 people, 2 man cab, but are usually in support of at least 1 full 10 man hazmat team. There is also a command center behind the cab, only entry is through the cab, that allows you to run the whole truck, has communication and video with shower and rear. It’s really set up for mass decon and not gross decon, takes close to 30min to set up. You’d walk a pretty fine line to set up in warm zone, we can hold gray water, up to 100gal and to 1500 with a porta a tank, but have to be supplied with potable water. In our evaluation we were dinged on not enough distance between hot and cold, and without setting up a maze of caution tape were not sure we can. We could wash the truck off but trying to contain the runoff would be next to imposable. I suppose it could be left for the pros that may be the only option. Thank god Illinois has spiller pays. We also have 24 more of these trucks in the state.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Theoretically speaking, the decon area IS the warm zone.
Hot = large amount of contamination present
Warm = contamination reduction
Cold = no contamination or small amount of contamination below dangerous levels. (ALARA)
I'm personally not a big fan of decon vehicles for either mass or technical decon - as 913 said, the zones are compacted very close together. There's also the problem with the interior of the vehicle being possible contaminated so badly that it can't be re-used. Even in a "spiller pays" environment, that's an expensive, hard-to-replace item. If you have to decon after a criminal event (meth lab) or terrorist event, good luck finding a spiller with a pocket deep enough to buy another decon truck.
South Carolina's COBRA system uses decon tents for mass decon. We can have one up and running within ten minutes of arrival on scene and hot water within about another five minutes. That's with three lanes - female ambulatory, male ambulatory, and a litter patient lane. It only takes four people plus a supervisor to operate, and only the supervisor has to be a hazmat technician - the rest can be operations level with a little extra training.
The best use I've found for decon vehicles is for personal showers after technical decon. The base camp vehicles the wildland folks use are perfect for this.
The MABAS decon truck looks like a nice vehicle. I'd hate to see it get trashed if you guys need to decon a bunch of tri-nitro killyatwice.
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I actually like methel ethel killyouquick but heck, that’s just me. Trucks are designed to have the “box” replaced, and you are right about the meth lab. Last one we went to, spent 8 hours there and still have not been paid. But I don’t see losing the truck at one of these. We carry enough supplies to decon 200 people and with the time frame we have, travel and setup, we are mainly going to do miner agents or secondary decon as you are going to do gross decon where there is life safety involved. The MABAS upper management has placed one of these trucks in every town with a collage, so you see what they are thinking. We also have the Burlington Northern main rail hub, and to quote a public health official from another county, has the largest volume of hazardous materials traveling through the city, then any other place in the nation. A place like that is where you’ll lose a truck. Ben, I’m curios about the COBRA system you have, BTW you been to Anniston for the training, what a blast, how many tents do you have throughout the state?
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Permalink Reply by Bill Muehsam on
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I don't like these mobile Decon Units for just that reason....not flexible enough on the scene. Once you set it up, your stuck!!! With the "Command Post/Area" right next to the "warm zone", where decon is being performed, bothers me also. I have evaluated several Hazmat/WMD exercises where these units were used. Lots of problems with "Cross contamination" because of the extremely limited warm zone. Also, Non-Ambulatory pt's are a PITA to do inside one of these. My advice, get rid of it and go with a Tent system. Allot more flexible and easier to set up and man.
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I’ll give ya the “once set up” thing, it can be done but would be a little tough. Take a look at pic 3 on my original question, you’ll see the area for non-ambulatory decon, pretty easy, roll them through, even sprays under the victim. I’ll attach another pic.
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Fire Training10-04-08 0344.jpg, 196 KB
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The South Carolina COBRA (Chemical, Ordinance, Biological, RAdiological) team system has 4 Advanced teams and 14 Basic team located across the state. All started out as Hazmat teams and went through an extensive training, equipping, and certification process. The standards include a variety of WMD training in addition to training on toxic industrial chemicals that can be used by people with bad intent.
The key focus on COBRA is saving people, as opposed to plugging leaks.
We use the TVI decon tent systems. The Advanced teams have some decon trailers in addition to the tents. The Basic teams just have the tents. Some non-COBRA counties also have additional tents.
Our standard COBRA technician requirements are Hazmat Technician and either Firefighter II or EMT-Basic for starters. The Big 3 of ODP classes are the basics - Anniston for Chemical, Socorro for Explosives, and Nevada for Radiological. We don't worry as much about Bio, because that's more likely to be a public health emergency rather than a point source incident like the other three.
The COBRA system is organized through our State Law Enforcement Division. We get a mix of federal and state funding. Almost all of the equipment is dual-use WMD and TIC/Hazmat, so we only have to buy it once.
For meth labs, the key ingredient is ATF. ATF brings additional federal funding so that the locals don't get stuck with the mega-costly cleanup and remediation for meth lab sites.
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OK, looks good. However, you allow the use of APR's on a HAzmat Scene???? Huge risk in my book. If your doing decon, SCBA or SABA are minimum standards. Unless you have a huge budget for filters, and know your product and concentration (without a doubt...100%......no guessing) then APR's are a no-no, IMHO. Besides, you get them wet, you lose effectiveness of the filter.
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Bill, there's nothing wrong with APRs for decon. The military uses them for MOPP gear, which is their highest level of protection. APRs are standard issue statewide in South Carolina for EMS, and as an option for the COBRA teams.
Hazmat decon is typically done in protection one level below the Hot Zone entry suits. If the entry teams are wearing Level B, then Level C may be all the decon team needs.
My hazmat team has the choice of Level A, B, or C. We use the Level C as an informed choice when it's appropriate. The HOT buildings at Anniston put the students in a mixed VX and Sarin environment wearing APRs with organic vapor cartridges. They've never had a chemical exposure during decades of putting both military and civilians through that training.
The organic vapor cannisters we use have N-95 filter media that keep the activated charcoal inner layer from getting wet. They work just fine, including for prolonged use in the shower tents.
There is a HUGE difference between wearing APRs for Hot Zone entry where high concentrations of product are possible, and wearing them in decon, where the contamination levels are much lower, even pre-decon.
Ben
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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on
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Whoever came up with the idea of setting these rigs up as command/communications centers & decon units didn't think this stuff through far enough. I'm not picking on you there are a BUNCH of them out there. It seems like they mass produced them. Your zones should be a little farther apart. Sometimes you can't space them out enough but error on the side of safety. It depends on the product but, the farther you can get away from the ethylmethyl badshit the better.
Since you can only enter through the cab, that means your cab could get contaminated. I know the box is made to be changed or dropped but how big of a job is that? Sometimes decon of an entire unit takes a while. You can wash down your cab on the outside but how easy is it going to be to decon the inside? This set up would be fantastic for a second wave decon unit.
What about your driver & passenger, what level of protection do they have? Are they suited up before they enter the zones? Your cab could be in the "warm" zone & exit to the cold zone.
APRs are fine if they have the right type of filter/cartridge.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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Folks working for the military, CDC, EPA, have no problem using a full face piece respirator when participating in CBNRE exercises, in fact it's the standard in many cases. Eventually, the fire service will embrace what the federal folks have been doing for years in regards to providing respiratory protection. SCBA's are not always the answer.
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