One for the Glow Worms

This as come about during our last drill, and deals with separation of hot, warm and cold zones. This is 101 stuff right. We have a decon truck, back of the truck is hot, truck itself is warm, and exit is cold. I’ll attach a couple of pics, its designed for ambulatory and non, does that not confuse everyone, anyways back to my question. You’ll note in the pictures that hot and cold join, or are very close, just looking for ideas to do this better. Note; flow is from back to front.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on November 13, 2008 at 2:59am
The design of your vehicle is not consistent with established practices for determining hot, warm and cold zones. It just does not make any sense to put support people that close to someone who is contaminated. Deal with radioactive dust issues and it becomes even more of an issue. I believe that the variable is what the product is just like anything else. If you have a chlorine leak, and the general public is involved, runoff issues are minimal at best and there really isn't a lot of off gassing going on. Now crank up the risk factor with something like a pesticide that you can smell from a distance, then you will have severe problems with this system. If your guys have gone through technical decon, then it's a wonderful place to provide responders to shower themselves, using warm water, soap and rinse x3.

For the general public that is contaminated, use of elevated master streams is generally accepted to be one of the better methods to corral people and give them something to do and focus on until additional resources and shower systems can be put into place. For smaller incidents where immediate decon is decided to be the best option, please consider using what is called trash bag decon. You need large black square trash bags, no ties, you fold it in half, using your fist as template for how big of a half circle to cut. Place duct tape on the shoulders to protect the seam and the victim can use this by slipping it over their head, and removing their clothing with modesty protection provided. We all learned in COBRA and basic hazmat that by removing the clothing alone removes 90% of radioactive contamination and 80% for chemical. (Rule of Thumb) We also know that the two most potentially exposed areas are the hands and face with specific emphasis on protecting the airway and eyes of the patients. What is removed from the patient (everything) is divided into two bags, one big (35 gallon size) for all clothing and one small (large freezer bag - zip lock) for personal items like wallet, car keys, money, valuables. The key to making this work is making the trash bag decon units... Here's a graphic. Please feel free to share this concept. For a couple of bucks, you can protect your department from any liability issues involving not providing modesty protection...


Not to mention that it is a fashion statement... Consider it a "Schlags Bag" : )


In regard to how your provide decon, I still think (personal opinion, no monetary compensation for me... damn...) that the cats meow for providing quick decon for processing people until the big guns arrive... is the DQE Decon Shower. I've had the chance to see them in use and know that all the hospitals in New York City have them and use them often for tear gas victims or even people that are just plain disgusting... You don't want to bring contaminated people to the warm zone... and with your rigs, you've got the cold zone within a few feet.

Consider a quick set up shower system to start processing folks. Here's what the shower looks like:



What I like about it is that it is small as far as storage and can either be used as an ambulatory or non-ambulatory system. They are pricey though at around 3K. They are an excellent tool for your hospitals as well. Many areas now have the larger decon shelters with showers and they work really well... but it takes time for folks to get there and get things set up. Being practical, by the time folks arrived and took 30 minutes to set up, you could have processed a lot of people immediately. Like the paramedic program in the very beginning, we need to think about using a tiered response for NBC+E. First responders can direct people from a safe uphill, upwind, etc. distance and put the trashbag decon units on, removing a lot of the contamination and maybe with the aid of a firefighter in PPE, have their faces washed off as well. More people coming? Get your elevated master stream in use, and people will flock to it. It's all about buying yourself some time until your resources arrive and all the while, you were doing something from the very beginning to minimize exposure to civilians and responders...

TCSS, SB Mike
Permalink Reply by Trainer on November 13, 2008 at 7:58am
Good discussion! Seems like everyone agrees with to close, hot warm cold. We usually back up to the edge of the warm zone, and then extend to the hot, so all set up is done in the cold, in every scene there is a define line between hot warm and cold, we just squeeze it a little, a lot is going to depend what product is present. As for the APR’s Ben covered it, we were doing Rand R in level B so decon in level C, it was chlorine powder, which may have been wrong. I’m trained for WMD, opps and command, I have had OSHA Tec, but that’s a joke, I am not a cert Tec, so I’ll ask this. We were deconing chlorine powder in level B, anyone know what happens when you introduce water to chlorine powder? I’m guessing, my only expertise here is I have a pool, and if I’m right no one caught it. Let me know your thoughts.

Back to the APR’s these were issused statewide after 911, they came with training cans and since this was a state funded drill, though it would look good to use them. We did have a plan B; I’ll attach another pic for that. The command center on this truck is just that, and is only for the truck opps.

Nice pic Mike, we didn’t have that much protection when we went into VX at Anniston. Looks like someone doing asbestos abatement.

As for the driver and passenger, their only job is truck setup/operations, however if there is a problem, we carry level B’s, but would probably pass on to decon personal.

We also carry the 2 part decon kits, has a red bag, green bag, booties, towel and comb, who ever though of the comb??? Plus bar code tracking bags and tags, for personal and property. But these cost way more then the “Schlags Bag"
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on November 13, 2008 at 1:22pm
the photo with the guy getting deconned was a CBNRE exercise and included the following info:

Dr. Madison Patrick, an instructor at the Army Medical Department C...

this is an easy decon scenario in regard to Chlorine + H20... yup, you are creating bleach... but effectively dealing with the inhalation hazards of chlorine powder. what was your source? was this a static or dynamic incident?

All the goodies you have for decon, great for the big one but let's stay real here... Your incident is going to involve a handful of folks usually unless you get into the hysteria panic mode, then you have the potential to get tons... this is where you are thankful that you read this post, went to Costco, bought a box of large trashbags, and some duct tape. Maybe even a pair of scissors. Put all this stuff in a paper grocery bag, put a couple of wraps of duct tape around it and label it accordingly, ( I prefer to call them Schlags Bags... ) and store it on each engine. Now you are always ready for mass decon at a cost of maybe $5.00? Save the high priced bar code tracking stuff for the big one. Use the grocery bag, trash bags and duct tape for your bread and butter hazmat calls...

Additionally, I do want to let you know that I do feel remorse for those who don't get to live in a warm climate... I know it's cold somewhere out there, but here it's going to be in the high 80's today and the ocean is looking really good these days, although too cold to swim in now. I bring this up because in the event of a large incident, one of the plans is to simply have people decon themselves in a large body of water that will suitably dilute the hazard and provide a greater degree of protection for victims... Here's a photo of our backup decon area...

TCSS, SB Mike

Santa Barbara Coastline
Permalink Reply by Trainer on November 13, 2008 at 3:30pm
Nice postcard, you can have your weather, I like Illinois where you don't know what you are going to have from day to day...as I try to convince myself, but hey its 55 here today. This incident was dynamic, primary building explosion with collapse, and secondary explosion of chemical room at municipal pool, sending a cloud of powder over a large area, WMD. Yes the introduction of water makes bleach, but would it also not off-gas, making a level A situation?

You kind of hit it with all the toys and the big one, and will say at this event we had 2 hazmat teams, 2 TRT teams, over 30 depts and a whole host of Government agencies. After 911, MABAS had a good portion of the state as members, when DOD started throwing money everywhere, they had a good conduit to funnel it threw. ITTF started by buying everyone the masks, personally I think that was a waste of 13 mil, but they never asked me. That’s when MABAS started receiving grants and buying toys for that big one. Now we have all this neet stuff and try to incorporate into day-to-day operations so it does not just sit there. Now don’t take this the wrong way, and I might be bragging a little, but Illinois has to way ahead of the curve when “IT” happens.
Permalink Reply by SusanDianeMurphree on November 13, 2008 at 5:09pm
Not really certain what you are talking about as I'm no hazmat person, however, could you not carry large amounts of Kenap as is used for oil spills in the ocean? I think this stuff comes in pellets or chopped up as it is sucked up thru a hose or something and then blown into 55 gallon drums. Doing my geneology, I ran across a cousin who grew kenap in Mississippi or Florida. It grows on hollow stalks like bamboo. Also, it is very light weight.
SusanDianemurphree..marianna, AR
Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on November 13, 2008 at 5:47pm
Brag away brother. You definitely have more toys than we do... and it does get boring having to endure this constant 70-80 degree temperatures... Of course when you are dealing with a cloud of Cl powder over a large area, the in suit heat stress issues can be counterproductive. I'm not sure that it would be totally necessary to not use a Level B for some of the decon ops, but if you have an abundance of Level A stuff, right on. I don't really care for going right to Level A because it's a risk vs. benefit thing. Heat stress levels and visibility suck in Level A. EPA, and their START teams use Level B more often than Level A, there's good reasons for this as mentioned...
Permalink Reply by Trainer on November 14, 2008 at 8:14am
Yea, we got the equipment, have close to 20 level A training suits. I wanted everyone to be in level B, since our air truck was new I wanted to show its capability and supply air to 3 different scenarios. Fill bottles for hazmat, supplied air for decon and TRT, but the guys whined too much in planning. The weather that day was not bad, sunny and 60. Just so we tested everything, we put a couple of leaking cl cylinders out of the way for them to mediate after R and R. I’ll attach a couple more pics to show how we handled the large area, don’t laugh.
We have talked a little on what level to wear; funny thing at COBRA training, you spend 2 days in level A, and when you get to “go in” your in level C, or was it the gov version of B, I can’t remember if the suit was 2 piece. I was there! Got my signature on the ceiling tile in the bar, but still can’t remember if it was 2 piece. In my defense it was a few years back. I do remember getting to wear the cool vest, or as our instructor called it the Popsicle vest, in hot weather a good asset to have, if you carry a freezer in your rig
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Permalink Reply by Bill Muehsam on November 15, 2008 at 10:50pm
Just wondering. I realize everyone does things a bit different. Just something we do not allow on our Team.

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