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Carbon Monoxide Calls..................?
What does your department do for carbon monoxide calls? My department has a tester but we don't stand by it, we'll tell the owner what the reading is and we urge them to get a professional person to check it out. We also have them sign a waiver that tells them we're not responsible for anything. I've heard of some sort of CO test tube that can detect it and if it does it changes color, but I can’t seem to find them anywhere...........................any help or are they a waste of money?
Thanks, TJ
Thanks, TJ
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Trainer on
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If you had them, would the outcome change? We like you, do the same thing, if anything is detected, we recomend to clear out, call the pro's. We have a CO oxcimater(spelling?) to check fo CO in the blood, but this was handed out by MABAS; at 4 grand each, I don't think we would have purchased one.
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Permalink Reply by Reg Mathis on
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I know our local Home Depot carries both detectors and "test kits". But as for the accuracy or reliability of either the monitor or kit, I don't have any data.
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Permalink Reply by Jason Brooks on
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You are basically on the right path. You monitor, get results, look for the problem, mitigate the problem and advise to call for professional help. We do not fix problems for residents, we stop them and clear the environment. If this mean shutting off gas to the house, then so be it. We leave a copy of our paperwork with readings and explanation of readings. The tubes you are asking about, may be colormetric tubes. They are a good backup or second test system. A good multi-gas, or even single gas CO monitor is what you need when you respond. These can be as much as $3500 or as little as a couple of hundred. But, you also need to maintain and calibrate them as directed. This is the start of the big CO season with heating, you need to be prepared. Don't forget, you should also monitor for CO in structures prior to SCBA removal at fires also. If the air is not clean, you stay packed up.
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Permalink Reply by T.J. on
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We've got a co monitor that we calibrate every year, but I thought maybe the test strips would be good too or is that a overkill.
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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The color tubes you are referring to are colormetric tubes usually made by Dragger. They are relatively inexpensive. My department has 4 CO meters, 4 Multi-Rae's, (which read CO) and 2 SCOTT Scouts (which read CO)
We check the home with multiple detectors and we fill out sheets at to the level of CO and a specific guideline of things to check directly. (stoves, driers, furnace, fireplace etc)
Making a homeowner sign a liability form is only going to make the homeowner have no faith in your operation. It is your job to assure them that the threat of CO is not present in their home.
The colormetric tubes you are referring to are great for getting an approximate level, but they won't give you an exact number. 35 ppm is the alarm level for the CO meters. It doesn't take much to get into the alarm range.
Better safe than sorry, obtain another multi-gas meter in your next budget.
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Permalink Reply by Wes Anders on
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We have a Scott 4 gas analizer but we tell people the same thing we are reading co and you need to get it checked by a professional.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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We have a Draeger 4 gas detector that we use to assess the situation. If we respond for a CO alarm, first step is to interview the occupant(s) to gain any clues. Next is to enter the building with the detector, with or without SCBA depending on the interview.
If the detector does not indicate any CO, we say "faulty detector, get a new one."
If we read CO, we try to find the source, then ventilate the structure thoroughly. Any misbehaving appliances are "red tagged" meaning we shut them off and also write a code ticket. The ticket explains that the occupant cannot use the appliance again until it is checked/repaired/replaced by a professional, and the code enforcement officer is happy.
We also carry the calibration kit along in the first due in case we have to perform a field calibration.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Eck on
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I would reccomend calibrating your instrument more than once a year. It seems that the standard for most manufactures is around 30 days, I believe there are a few at 90 days and I know of one at 6 months. Depending on your meter and skill level of users you could perform a bump test monthly, although I believe many makers would prefer to see it done before each use. I personaly think that it is slightly overkill and possibly influenced by the fact that test gas is around$200 a bottle. As for the colormetric tubes, they are good and fairly cheap. They are accurate to determine if the gas is present when used right. The only problem is shelf life, but you will have the same problem with meters if not maintained properly.
As far as the range of which we reccomend persons to leave the building that does vary. For residental use we will reccomend not to be in the atmosphere at levels above 10ppm. We use this number based upon the fact that damage can occur at this level for prolonged (as realy long as it may be) exposure. We use 35ppm as our level on commercial use. This is based on permissble levels according to OSHA. There is room to modify as needed dependant upon any signs or symptoms of the occupants.
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Permalink Reply by John on
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We dispatch 2 apparatus to a CO call and all are equiped with 4 gas analyzers to check the atmosphere of the residence. and of course we have air packs and all just in case we do find a problem. If nothing is found we have a report to fill out and have the home owner get the detector fixed or replaced. If there is a problem we try to isolate it and then ventilate the structure, and have the owner get whatever we found fixed. We just got some new 4 gas analyzers from MSA also.
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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We have a response policy for CO alarm without ill subject, (flow of traffic) and CO alarm with ill subjects, (engine/ambulance) w/lights/sirens. Dispatchers are trained to tell the person to wait outside but do not open up the windows and vent before FD arrival. We have 3 gas, 4gas, PID's, CO Meters HS meters and colormetric tubes on our first due apparatus... we also run a Level A Hazmat Team with CHEM ID Machine, etc. We have personnel on each shift that are trained to calibrate all the meters once a week. We have so many different meters, that there are too many differences in calibration and repairs to allow everybody in the cookie jar. Scheduling the calibration will depend on your call volume and the manufactures recommendation.
We have a CO SOG, full PPE, SCBA inplace, and we always use (2) air monitors. Usually a 4 gas with CO sensor and a single gas CO unit to make sure you have an accurate reading and it also covers you butt in case your meter is inaccurate. We have operational levels that drive our on scene PPE levels. We arrive and start the meters in fresh air, calibrate them with fresh air (if applicable) the single gas does not have that option.
The OIC has the call to order the crew on SCBA air from the onset of air monitoring which starts outside the main door threshold. We usually monitor at the front door threshold, then reach inside to get a reading, if the meter alarms then we are ordered on air. If you step off the truck breathing air it usually scares the public, so common sense here folks.
You will get an idea after using this method about looking for a spike in PPM, we use the 35ppm rule for exposure for actually donning the SCBA mask. Greater than 35 ppm would require further investigation of the source on SCBA air. If you hit the UEL or high end alarm, we ventilate the structure before we make entry. Then once you have lower levels we can enter to monitor the structure safely without worrying about the place going Boom!
35 ppm is on the low side, yes... but CO exposure is culmulative over repeated exposures too. So your SCBA air is free, why not breath the "known" good stuff. Drives me wild to hear people say it is only a furnace blow back, no masks but what they don't realize that the fire personnel are already beyond the threshold for mandatory medical monitoring at a local hospital.
We have a CO exposure form that the OIC fills out, lists the meters we used, lists all the potential sources in the house and we meter at each source. Report the findings and if you find the source, declare that device out of service. Write your readings on the form and have the occupant sign the document. Give him one copy for his records and the other two go to Prevention and the OIC.
Here is some other interesting facts about Carbon Monoxide to put it in prespective. The last one usually raises some eyebrows too...
Source Concentrations - [AT THE SOURCE]
0.1 ppm - natural background atmosphere level (MOPITT)
0.5 to 5 ppm - average background level in homes
5 to 15 ppm - levels near properly adjusted gas stoves in homes
100-200 ppm - Mexico City central area from autos etc.
5,000 ppm - inisde a chimney with a home wood stove
7,000 ppm - undiluted warm car exhaust - without catalytic converter
30,000 ppm - undiluted cigarette smoke at the unfiltered end
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Excellent post, FETC. I'd like to add a couple of things I wrote into our SOP, just for background.
Household carbon monoxide detectors are designed to activate under the following conditions (from UL 2304):
- 70 parts per million (ppm) CO concentration in one to four hours
- 150 ppm CO concentration between 10 and 50 minutes
- 400 ppm CO concentration between 4 and 15 minutes
Exposure to CO in concentrations of 1 to 70 ppm will not affect most healthy persons. Exposure to 100 ppm for 1 to 2 hours will decrease exercise tolerance and possibly cause irregular heartbeat. At concentrations of 200 ppm over 1 to 2 hours, symptoms will appear including headache, nausea and altered mental status.
The short term exposure limit (STEL) for CO is 200 ppm, while a concentration of 1200 ppm is immediately dangerous to life and health (IDLH).
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Chief,
Great additions. I believe off the top of my head, 35 ppm is the TWA. 8 hours per day 5 days per week. I know most meters will alarm at the STEL for 200 and that is with only 15 minutes of exposure.
Bottom line is no many treat the CO call as serious, especially when people state they are not feeling ill. Firefighters are exposed to many chemicals that are unfortunately cumulative, and it is very difficult to get rid of once we take the hit.
TCSS
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