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Vehicle Extrication- Armored Car (Brinks, etc.).
The other day, some of us were spit-balling ideas and wondered how we'd handle an extrication scenario involving an armored car. I was unable to find any information on the subject. The only thing I can think of is to contact an armored car company & see if they feel like sharing.
Does anyone here have any experience with doing an armored car extrication? Thanks in advance!
Does anyone here have any experience with doing an armored car extrication? Thanks in advance!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on
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Thanks Lutan, that was a very informative thread from that other site. The only part I didn't agree with was the part about the guards inside shooting at the rescuers. I would hope that if we responded to an armored car extrication, that the knuckleheads inside would have the good judgement not to shoot us! I'd love to get some real hands on training though. I'm just afraid that the armored car company will be too paranoid to help me. Thanks again, Lutan! Stay safe!
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Permalink Reply by Derek Weum on
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Hi, i cant say i have any experience in extricating from an armored vehicle, but ur forum caught my attention because i work in the armored car business.
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So Derek, you'd be the ideal person to ask. Does your armored car company have any SOP's regarding an accident requiring you to be extricated from the vehicle? Anything you could add to this discussion would be valuable. This whole thing got started because one day I noticed that in my town, we've got 3 different armored car companies dealing with the local businesses (banks, supermarkets, walgreens, CVS, etc.)! Thanks in advance & stay safe!
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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Brian, you must consider that if the guards in the truck have sustained head injuries, they might not be capable of "good judgment" or rational thinking.
Our department did make an incident with an armored car on it's side about 3 years ago. Minor injuries, driver out of vehicle. The guard in the back was conscious and alert, but was not going to let us inside until her supervisor arrived. She has a gun, I don't... no problem. We waited until the supervisor arrived and unlocked the door.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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The guard in the back was conscious and alert, but was not going to let us inside until her supervisor arrived. She has a gun, I don't... no problem. We waited until the supervisor arrived and unlocked the door.
This is what the source of my information was talking about. If they're conscious enough they will not/should not let anyone near the vehicle/money until a Supervisor arrives- it's their training.
I think from our perspective, we need to change the way we approach these sort of high security incidents. You arrive at an overturned vehicle such as these and suddnely jump up on the side of it and try to stick your head in through the smashed window could suddenly find us with a fair amount of lead in our diet. Don't forget that shock does a whole raft of strange things to people....
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Permalink Reply by Engine 32 Capt. on
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I worked for an armored carrier part time (hated it). Good luck on getting any info from them. As someone said earlier, they're not going to tell you how to break into their vehicles. Plain and simple.
It is my understanding as well that most (if not all) companies have a policy that the doors are not to be opened at any time until armed personnel arrive to help secure the vehicle.
The trucks are sound, and entrapment is unlikely. The few trucks I've heard about being wrecked had the doors pop open anyway. The box is just that - a box. If any serious torque gets put on it, it will pop open. The locks and bolts are a nice though, but not fool proof. Especially on older trucks.
If you ever get close enough to look at one (without getting shot), pay attention to the doors. Most have two or three bolts holding the side door on the hinges, and they are on the outside. If you remove those bolts, the door would likely fall off the truck.
The glass is not a huge issue, While it would take some work, it is not a barrier. It is only intended to protect the occupants long enough for them to flee the threat. In other words, if the car was stationary and you started firing rounds into it, the glass would fail.
If all else fails, remember that it's not our emergency. If a guard tells you to step away from the truck you should probably do so. If they want to bleed to death for someone else's money because a supervisor hasn't arrived, best of luck to them. The crappy thing about that is that there are "country runs", where the supervisor could be 1, 2 or 3 hours away. This is why I quit that crap. It's not worth it.
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Thanks Cap.
"If they want to bleed to death for someone else's money because a supervisor hasn't arrived, best of luck to them."
I can't believe that even with Police on the scene, the guards would not let anyone enter the vehicle until their supervisors got there! Never mind the fact that you can't use deadly force to protect money! But like you said, it's not our emergency. Stay safe!
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Permalink Reply by Jason Brooks on
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I have emailed Brinks in the past and got a favorable response. I need to get back in tuch with them. They were supposedly going to get me some out of service vehicle to cut up and give back to them. I am assuming it would be a stripped out truck. They also will sell them to the SWAT guys for next to nothing, they have to give them back for disposal when they are done with them though.
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I may try that apprroach as well. I would love to be able to actually get my hands on an armored vehicle for training, even if we had to give it back when we're finished. It would be an "outside the box" extrication training scenario!
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Permalink Reply by Bill Brierton on
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So far no armored car extrication but I'm sure it would be a challange if we had to extricate somebody from an armored car. I don't think a armored car company would share any secrets of their vehicles but you never know until you ask.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Brian,
You're assuming that the guards would be rational. If they have any altered mental status from a head injury, or from hypoxemia due to blood loss, then they're not going to be rational.
As for not using deadly force to protect the money - sure you can. That's why the armored car guards carry loaded weapons. More importantly, they can use firearms to protect themselves. Given that their mission is protecting the contents of the armored car (the money and themselves) if they see us breaking in with loud, scary tools, they could start shooting.
Firefighter safety is the priority over rescuing the guards in this situation.
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I recently attended a class on accessing Marines from up-armored Humvees and armored fighting vehicles. This class was conducted by Marine Wind Support Squadron 273, (the Sweathogs) at MCAS Beaufort. Several points that were made here are pertinent to armored cars, too.
1) Armored doors are HEAVY. They can weigh several hundred pounds. If you remove one of these, be prepared for your toes to be smashed flat unless you secure the door prior to completely severing it from the vehicle.
2) Although we typically are taught not to use torches or rotary saws for standard extrications due to the fire hazards, they may be valuable during an armored vehicle extrication. Prior to using an open flame or rotary saw that can induce sparks, you MUST foam any fuel spills, stop fuel leaks, or otherwise control all fuel sources. Once the fuel vapors are suppressed, you may be able to use an oxy-acetylene torch, Petrogen torch, or rotary saw with an abrasive blade to attack the hinges and/or door latch.
3) The cab glass is the weakest point on most armored cars. You may be able to make a purchase point with a Halligan or other tool, then simply cut the glass away with a sawzall. It will take time compared to standard glass removal, but if the guard is small enough, you may be able to simply cover the exposed glass edges and then remove the patient through the opening.
4) Even if you can't remove the patient through the glass, if you can get a small rescuer inside through the glass opening, you may be able to unlock the doors from the inside.
5) Another point that the Marines made is that armored doors don't usually distort very much in a crash, due to their weight, bulk, and built-in impact resistance. If you can unlock an armored door, you generally can get it open manually or with simple muscle-powered prying tools.
6) Remember to NEVER put a body part between an armored door or the door frame until the door is completely secured. Wedge the door open with cribbing, tie it back with come-alongs/cables/chains, block it open with a hydraulic ram or shoring strut, or do all of the above, but make sure that the door can't accidentally close on your hand, or on the patient when we have him/her halfway out of the door opening.
7) Military armored vehicles usually have a HD shackle installed on the exterior. You can hook chains, a crane strap, or other rigging to this shackle, then use a wrecker boom or rescue vehicle-mounted A-frame and winch to keep the door from falling when you get it open and/or removed from the vehicle.
This isn't comprehensive, but it will help with basic armored vehicle accidents, including military armored vehicles if you respond on or near a military base.
Bottom line - don't treat armored vehicle wrecks as if they were a standard extrication, and don't tunnel in on getting the guards extricated while overlooking responder safety.
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