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Diversification, lowering the bar is not the solution...so let's come up with some that work.
Alameda Fire Department Accomplishments During the Administration of Fire Chief James L. Christiansen: Diversified workforce: committed to creating a diversified work force that mirrors the ethnic makeup of the community. Of the 12 new fire fighters hired under Chief Christiansen’s administration, six were from underrepresented groups (three females, one Asian male, two Hispanic males).
The London based Local Government Association is advocating women make up 15% of the fire service and minorities make up the same amount of the fire service as they do the community.
London Local Government Association
Fire brigade 'discriminating against white men'
Only women and people from ethnic minorities are allowed to attend four of the five open days being held by Avon Fire Service to attract new recruits.
The fire brigade said it was targeting specific groups because currently 97 per cent of its 921 employees are white men.
Phillip Davies, Tory MP for Shipley, said: "This sort of thing makes people's blood boil, and does more damage than good to race relations in this country.
"How would people react if women and black people were banned from an open day?
London Telegraph
Thanks Art for getting my brain going.
When read Art's blog on the BSFD recruits LODD I was incensed by not only the senselessness of it, but also the idea that by making a test easier, it would allow for more minority or women candidates to get the job.
I truly feel this is disrespectful to both groups.
The fire safety aspect of this has been discussed ad nauseum in the comments to Art's blog, so Ill stick with the diversity element of the issue.
I know some on here will think I am way off base and as a white male firefighter I do not understand what the diversification drive does for women and minorities...well brothers and sisters, you are wrong, and Ill tell you why.
My best friend in this service is black, and a captain. He and I disagree on politics, football teams, and what shape derriere is attractive.
When we talk politics, most of the guys in the station leave the room, afraid of witnessing a fight.
We talk race from both perspectives and diversification is a regular topic.
For both of us, it is important to see things from another point of view.
In short, I listen and try to learn from people who are different then me.
Do I know what it is to be black or female? Not in a million years, but I do make an effort to understand why other people think differently than I.
Mike is from Georgia, and since I spent a good 5 years of my career in Savannah, he knows I understand what life is like in the deep south (think 1876 ideas, versus todays).
It is the ability to communicate without worrying about being PC that gives both of us insight into the other side of the argument.
We both listen and learn, even when we disagree...and that is a lot!
The Dilemma
When we lower standards to hire a targeted portion of the population it hurts everyone, and not in the least the targeted group.
Think about it.
It says "hey, you aren't good enough to pass this, so we will make it easier so you have a chance"
That sure makes someone feel good about themselves and their community...right?
These candidates are set up for failure from the start.
How is someone who made a 72 on the test going to beat the guy who had to make a 100, come promotion time?
It isn't impossible, but it sure is an uphill battle.
So if we want diversification, lowering standards isn't the way.
Mentorship
Why do white boys want to be firefighters?
What drives so many white kids to the fire service?
For Irish and Italian American kids, the fire service was a traditional way out of poverty.
It was a job no one else wanted, it was dangerous, and something they took ownership of in a big way.
My moms side is Irish, and as a child my Firefighter Uncle was my role model.
I saw him going out and helping the community, being a positive force and helping others. That was the mentorship I was shown as a child, and like my uncle I became a firefighter.
For many of us, the fire service is where we will go after school. That is a culture that didn't happen overnight. It was cultivated and for many second, third fourth or fifth generation firefighters is just the way it is.
From the time we could remember, fire trucks, and fire stations were the things that excited us. Hell, I think i started drinking coffee as a kid, because that was what the firefighters I knew did.
For most of the country there was no diverse culture in the fire service, it was O'Malley, Ward, Santini, McDonald, and Kelly whose names we saw on lockers and jackets as children. Even us Scandanavians (squareheads) have had to push our way into the fray. To see a black or female firefighter was amazing as a child, but today they are just another firefighter going by on the truck or engine.
If we really want diversity, we need mentorship in minority communities. We need ethnic firefighters and fire officers to get out in the community and direct those kids towards the fire service, not lower standards.
How is the perception that minorities aren't capable of getting the job on their own merits a good thing?
For many departments, a minority is looked at as odd, but for many others it is the norm.
Either way, developing a culture in the community is going to take time.
However...it can be fostered through other channels.
Start a co-op at the high school level that puts them through the state firefighter certification course over a school year. (most departments in Texas require a certified fire academy certification to take their test)
One of the local HS's here has a tech training program with the local fire academy.
In closing:
My closest friends on the job are black and hispanic, one of the members of this board I have the highest respect for is female, and in the next twenty years I would love to see my fire service reflect the diversity of this great nation of ours. But...We have got to do it the right way!
We need to use groups like the Black or Hispanic Firefighters Associations to start mentorship programs in their communities. Women in the FS need to get involved in organizations like the Girl Scouts and Explorers to show young women that they can succeed in our field too.
This forum is a great place to start putting heads together that can have a positive impact, instead of fighting over who has the sickest light bar on their POV.
***Diversification is going to happen, is happening , and the days of a white male only fire service are gone. We can put our heads together and find ways to make this a positive thing, or we can go kicking and screaming into the long dark night with the same results.
Questions:
How do we recruit the best and brightest from all groups?
Who are our leaders amongst the minority communities, women included?
How can we get them involved in making the fire service a viable option for their youths?
Instead of letting governments dictate to us who is or isnt a proper candidate, why dont we set the bar for them?
Let us start with these questions and find a common ground that works for everyone involved.
TCSS
The London based Local Government Association is advocating women make up 15% of the fire service and minorities make up the same amount of the fire service as they do the community.
London Local Government Association
Fire brigade 'discriminating against white men'
Only women and people from ethnic minorities are allowed to attend four of the five open days being held by Avon Fire Service to attract new recruits.
The fire brigade said it was targeting specific groups because currently 97 per cent of its 921 employees are white men.
Phillip Davies, Tory MP for Shipley, said: "This sort of thing makes people's blood boil, and does more damage than good to race relations in this country.
"How would people react if women and black people were banned from an open day?
London Telegraph
Thanks Art for getting my brain going.
When read Art's blog on the BSFD recruits LODD I was incensed by not only the senselessness of it, but also the idea that by making a test easier, it would allow for more minority or women candidates to get the job.
I truly feel this is disrespectful to both groups.
The fire safety aspect of this has been discussed ad nauseum in the comments to Art's blog, so Ill stick with the diversity element of the issue.
I know some on here will think I am way off base and as a white male firefighter I do not understand what the diversification drive does for women and minorities...well brothers and sisters, you are wrong, and Ill tell you why.
My best friend in this service is black, and a captain. He and I disagree on politics, football teams, and what shape derriere is attractive.
When we talk politics, most of the guys in the station leave the room, afraid of witnessing a fight.
We talk race from both perspectives and diversification is a regular topic.
For both of us, it is important to see things from another point of view.
In short, I listen and try to learn from people who are different then me.
Do I know what it is to be black or female? Not in a million years, but I do make an effort to understand why other people think differently than I.
Mike is from Georgia, and since I spent a good 5 years of my career in Savannah, he knows I understand what life is like in the deep south (think 1876 ideas, versus todays).
It is the ability to communicate without worrying about being PC that gives both of us insight into the other side of the argument.
We both listen and learn, even when we disagree...and that is a lot!
The Dilemma
When we lower standards to hire a targeted portion of the population it hurts everyone, and not in the least the targeted group.
Think about it.
It says "hey, you aren't good enough to pass this, so we will make it easier so you have a chance"
That sure makes someone feel good about themselves and their community...right?
These candidates are set up for failure from the start.
How is someone who made a 72 on the test going to beat the guy who had to make a 100, come promotion time?
It isn't impossible, but it sure is an uphill battle.
So if we want diversification, lowering standards isn't the way.
Mentorship
Why do white boys want to be firefighters?
What drives so many white kids to the fire service?
For Irish and Italian American kids, the fire service was a traditional way out of poverty.
It was a job no one else wanted, it was dangerous, and something they took ownership of in a big way.
My moms side is Irish, and as a child my Firefighter Uncle was my role model.
I saw him going out and helping the community, being a positive force and helping others. That was the mentorship I was shown as a child, and like my uncle I became a firefighter.
For many of us, the fire service is where we will go after school. That is a culture that didn't happen overnight. It was cultivated and for many second, third fourth or fifth generation firefighters is just the way it is.
From the time we could remember, fire trucks, and fire stations were the things that excited us. Hell, I think i started drinking coffee as a kid, because that was what the firefighters I knew did.
For most of the country there was no diverse culture in the fire service, it was O'Malley, Ward, Santini, McDonald, and Kelly whose names we saw on lockers and jackets as children. Even us Scandanavians (squareheads) have had to push our way into the fray. To see a black or female firefighter was amazing as a child, but today they are just another firefighter going by on the truck or engine.
If we really want diversity, we need mentorship in minority communities. We need ethnic firefighters and fire officers to get out in the community and direct those kids towards the fire service, not lower standards.
How is the perception that minorities aren't capable of getting the job on their own merits a good thing?
For many departments, a minority is looked at as odd, but for many others it is the norm.
Either way, developing a culture in the community is going to take time.
However...it can be fostered through other channels.
Start a co-op at the high school level that puts them through the state firefighter certification course over a school year. (most departments in Texas require a certified fire academy certification to take their test)
One of the local HS's here has a tech training program with the local fire academy.
In closing:
My closest friends on the job are black and hispanic, one of the members of this board I have the highest respect for is female, and in the next twenty years I would love to see my fire service reflect the diversity of this great nation of ours. But...We have got to do it the right way!
We need to use groups like the Black or Hispanic Firefighters Associations to start mentorship programs in their communities. Women in the FS need to get involved in organizations like the Girl Scouts and Explorers to show young women that they can succeed in our field too.
This forum is a great place to start putting heads together that can have a positive impact, instead of fighting over who has the sickest light bar on their POV.
***Diversification is going to happen, is happening , and the days of a white male only fire service are gone. We can put our heads together and find ways to make this a positive thing, or we can go kicking and screaming into the long dark night with the same results.
Questions:
How do we recruit the best and brightest from all groups?
Who are our leaders amongst the minority communities, women included?
How can we get them involved in making the fire service a viable option for their youths?
Instead of letting governments dictate to us who is or isnt a proper candidate, why dont we set the bar for them?
Let us start with these questions and find a common ground that works for everyone involved.
TCSS
Add a Comment
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Comment by Spanner 122 on January 8, 2009 at 9:44am
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I just realized I got carried away with how I feel about standards being lowered that I didn't comment on what might work. Middle school programs, before high school, grade 8 perhaps. Kids are developing their own way of thinking and yet are not forced to choose courses based on post secondary as of yet. Perhaps have some extre curricular activities that are free for the schools, open to everyone but focusing on having girls and minorities take part. Also Girls' summer camps, such as in Halifax, Washington, and I believe Virginia. Great programs and great opportunities for the girls to see what they would be expected to do.
Also, high school courses that are related to Emergency services. Not simply fire, but also police and ems.
There are many ways an outreach program could work to build the future of the fire service, but it seems departments are so gung ho to do it now. I know one of our Chiefs in particular said high school programs would take too long, he wants more women now... in other words, he wants to be "responsible" for it. Take the time, put the effort in and look to the future. The instant gratification model just isn't going to work.
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Comment by lutan1 on January 8, 2009 at 4:33am
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Think we are having problems with recruitment now wait about 10 yrs and see what happens then.
Just look at volunteering in general- it's already a problem trying to get people to do it and then to stick with it
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Comment by Jenny Holderby on January 8, 2009 at 2:07am
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Lets look at this another way. They have essentially lowered the standard for many years to assist in the hiring of minorities. They basically "curve" the grading scale. That isn't as terrible as it sounds. If ten people take the test and six of them are 20 - 25 yr old white males who score 95 - 100% on the test and then the 2 guys of other ethnic origins, and 2 women who scored 90 - 95% on the tests don't have a chance at the job although they may still be highly qualified. Many people who would otherwise be interested in the job won't apply because they don't think that they can compete with the others because the fire service has always been predominately white men. It is changing. In areas where the population is diverse, public services are more diverse.
Yes I agree that it does sound terrible that white men are being excluded from recruiting efforts. I do think others are more encouraged by that fact. Yet many really don't want to live & work in the world that is dominated by white men no matter how charming & wonderful they are. Some folks are just not cut out to be firefighters or police officers or emergency medical providers.
In South East Ohio we have little to attract minorities but now more people of different origins are moving into the area. Most of those folks are business owners, doctors, lawyers, educators and other professionals. Their children or grandchildren might want to be involved in emergency services in years to come and we need to make sure they are welcome.
Second, third & often fourth generations of firefighters are dying out. The children are realizing that the job is too dangerous, dirty and often not rewarding. The pay is too low and there is a big high tech world out there that they want to explore and work in.
What about education? Twenty or thirty years ago, few people went to college. Now MOST kids do go to college. If we are going to hire people with degrees in fire science in the future are there enough schools offering the programs and will there be enough money to attract them into jobs?
Another reality we have to face no matter how diverse we want to become is that not everybody wants to be a firefighter. Kids today don't go out & play firefighter. Sheezzee I am depressing myself. Think we are having problems with recruitment now wait about 10 yrs and see what happens then.
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Comment by Allen Wahlstrom on January 7, 2009 at 10:11pm
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Ladies...well said.
I also read the Austin proposal in depth and re-read it today coming up with a similar impression to Kali's.
I still say, if we want to attract the best candidates get the minority leaders in the fire service out in the community. That or use head hunters to cherry pick the best and brightest from other departments.
My other thought is this.
In Texas there are more certification programs in community colleges than could have been imagined 20 years ago. To get a job at most departments you have to not only hold a Texas Commision of Fire Protection Certification, but also an EMT-B and in many cases EMT-P.
The exceptions are Dallas, Ft Worth, Houston, and a few other Large departments that still run their own recruit classes. For most departments though it is a prereq.
I know some find it amusing that a white male firefighter is blogging about diversification. I am not looking for a fight, being condescending or partonizing anyone here. This is something that needs to be looked at from all angles, because all of us are effected by any new hire in our departments.
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So... let's try this again. My first and most passionate thought about this, is that lowering standards and having "women/minority only" hirings shows that these cities do not believe women and minorities can pass the regular tests and compete with white men. Seriously? who are we kidding. I worked for nearly 6 years to get on this job, it wasn't handed to me. I was lower in the ranks because many of the men did better than I did in the physical, I did very well in the written and then climbed the list in the interview. I was high enough to be hired and competed against the men to get there, and yes, it took some time and yes it means something. IT REALLY MEANS SOMETHING!
48% women... that's not even a possibility and it's stupid (oh so eloquent, but really what other word can I use there, assanine, ridiculous, impossible). The National average (US) of women in the workforce is 48%, the National average of women in dirty, tough jobs is just under 17%. A closer aim for any fire department would be 10-15%. My department is under 2% which clearly represents the number of women who apply and pass the initial testing. If 2000 men apply and only 100 women apply, why would a department hire them all just to hire them? In my city, the overall pass rate after the written tests is less than 20%, of them, women make up under 5%. Hire them all to fill a quota? Ridiculous.
Police in many cities already have a three list process and hire the top from each three lists. They are open and up front about it, doesn't make it right, but clears them from HR complaints.
What else can I say about this. I disagree strongly. Check out Richmond, BC... it did not go well and is still not going well there, but they had some serious issues leading into this. Apparently a women/minority only hiring was in response to some very serious sexual assault allegations and charges (and one female firefighter committing suicide after she quit). Halifax, NS did it as well. You paid a fortune as a white male to apply and had to have NFPA 1001 and 1002, as a female or minority you had to bring canned goods and they would put you through NFPA 1001 and 1002 (which you would pay for in installments and only hired if you passed). Imagine how that went over???
Affirmative Action didn't solve any problems? Reverse Discrimination does not work...which I mentioned before is not discrimination againt white men.. that is still just discrimination.. . .it is trying to fix past wrongs by changing hiring policies going forward... being overly advantageous for women and minorities (in this case).
Let's just get back to hiring those who are capable, whether they have family members in the department, have previous experience, came from a desk job or teaching, are male or female, etc, etc, etcc... this arguement gets old and departments forcing it down our throats is just starting to piss me off and really dimishes the work some of us did to get there. We all become cast in the same light, painted with the same brush, swept up with the same broom... etc, etc, etc...
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Comment by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on January 7, 2009 at 11:12am
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Kali:
The point of my comment if you look at it in its entirety says that the "worsification" comes from those who would go through the want ads, so to speak, apply for the fire department, have no clue to the tradition, history or job requirements. You cannot look at firefighting like you would any other job. It's much more than that and if you haven't done your homework and come to realize that you may or may not be cut out to be a firefighter, then you are going to be disappointed or worse, dead.
I'm all for bringing in fresh ideas and new perspectives, but there has to be in those candidates a set of core values that drives them to that emotional level that identifies them as a firefighter, which in turn, becomes their identity; they cannot separate one from the other.
And that goes way beyond just collecting a paycheck and bennies.
That is why I mentioned socio-economically challenged areas. You can't be blind to the dynamics of firefighting simply because it starts out at 30K a year and includes health and dental.
That mentality is not limited to one ethnic group. It would be several.
TCSS.
Art
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Comment by Darren Hyson on January 7, 2009 at 2:35am
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I am amused at how people associate diversity with lowering standards. I will not repeat what has already been expressed Kali and is already know but it often ignored. To answer the writers question, it is possible to reflect the demographics (ethinic) of a community with ignoring any race with what is being proposed in Austin, TX called the Reflect Initiative. It does not desciminate against any race and looks for the best in all groups. With this plan, you can get the highest scorers of an exam from all ethnic groups. See the details at http://www.aaaffa.org/ourstand.htm.
Hope this helps. I am at the point of not arguing with my fellow brothers and sisters in the Fire Service, I just want to help my profession be the best it can be which I respect and care for. Lets all try to state facts and get away from using blogs just to state opinons and argue. Progress and collaboration can do much good. God bless my brothers and sisters of all races in the Fire Service.
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Also, what is the downside to hiring people who "don't have it in their blood," who "haven't stepped inside a fire station" or who "have no relatives in the business?" Is it possible you might get someone who has a fresh point of view, new ways to solves old problems, or a much better attitude than someone who by a chance of genetics is related to the chief and has the job handed to him?
Well said! Fresh blood and new ideas, thinking outside the box (and all the other cliches to go with it!) are often fantastic for any department- we all too often get blinded by "how we've always done it" thinking....
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Where the hell is my post??? MAN... Well thought out ... MAN!!! Okay, I'll have to come back to it later...
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When Chief Goodwin of BCFD "opened up the gates of diversity" as he claims, I can tell you that PAY was at the top of the billboard.
Despite the fact that many of us have said that we would do this for free, Goodwin got his "sea of humanity" from marketing the pay and bennies to the economically depressed areas.
So, you get people who don't "have it in their blood"; you get people who haven't stepped inside of a fire station; you get people who have no relatives in the business; you have people drawn to the pay and insurance and that is how they will view the job; as "just a job".
"Diversification could create a "worsification" of the glorious history and tradition of our fire service as we know it". By that, I mean the motivators and NOT the people who populate the fire service.
Yes; diversity most definitely; if done for the right reasons and done in the right way.
TCSS.
Art
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