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Diversification, lowering the bar is not the solution...so let's come up with some that work.
Alameda Fire Department Accomplishments During the Administration of Fire Chief James L. Christiansen: Diversified workforce: committed to creating a diversified work force that mirrors the ethnic makeup of the community. Of the 12 new fire fighters hired under Chief Christiansen’s administration, six were from underrepresented groups (three females, one Asian male, two Hispanic males).
The London based Local Government Association is advocating women make up 15% of the fire service and minorities make up the same amount of the fire service as they do the community.
London Local Government Association
Fire brigade 'discriminating against white men'
Only women and people from ethnic minorities are allowed to attend four of the five open days being held by Avon Fire Service to attract new recruits.
The fire brigade said it was targeting specific groups because currently 97 per cent of its 921 employees are white men.
Phillip Davies, Tory MP for Shipley, said: "This sort of thing makes people's blood boil, and does more damage than good to race relations in this country.
"How would people react if women and black people were banned from an open day?
London Telegraph
Thanks Art for getting my brain going.
When read Art's blog on the BSFD recruits LODD I was incensed by not only the senselessness of it, but also the idea that by making a test easier, it would allow for more minority or women candidates to get the job.
I truly feel this is disrespectful to both groups.
The fire safety aspect of this has been discussed ad nauseum in the comments to Art's blog, so Ill stick with the diversity element of the issue.
I know some on here will think I am way off base and as a white male firefighter I do not understand what the diversification drive does for women and minorities...well brothers and sisters, you are wrong, and Ill tell you why.
My best friend in this service is black, and a captain. He and I disagree on politics, football teams, and what shape derriere is attractive.
When we talk politics, most of the guys in the station leave the room, afraid of witnessing a fight.
We talk race from both perspectives and diversification is a regular topic.
For both of us, it is important to see things from another point of view.
In short, I listen and try to learn from people who are different then me.
Do I know what it is to be black or female? Not in a million years, but I do make an effort to understand why other people think differently than I.
Mike is from Georgia, and since I spent a good 5 years of my career in Savannah, he knows I understand what life is like in the deep south (think 1876 ideas, versus todays).
It is the ability to communicate without worrying about being PC that gives both of us insight into the other side of the argument.
We both listen and learn, even when we disagree...and that is a lot!
The Dilemma
When we lower standards to hire a targeted portion of the population it hurts everyone, and not in the least the targeted group.
Think about it.
It says "hey, you aren't good enough to pass this, so we will make it easier so you have a chance"
That sure makes someone feel good about themselves and their community...right?
These candidates are set up for failure from the start.
How is someone who made a 72 on the test going to beat the guy who had to make a 100, come promotion time?
It isn't impossible, but it sure is an uphill battle.
So if we want diversification, lowering standards isn't the way.
Mentorship
Why do white boys want to be firefighters?
What drives so many white kids to the fire service?
For Irish and Italian American kids, the fire service was a traditional way out of poverty.
It was a job no one else wanted, it was dangerous, and something they took ownership of in a big way.
My moms side is Irish, and as a child my Firefighter Uncle was my role model.
I saw him going out and helping the community, being a positive force and helping others. That was the mentorship I was shown as a child, and like my uncle I became a firefighter.
For many of us, the fire service is where we will go after school. That is a culture that didn't happen overnight. It was cultivated and for many second, third fourth or fifth generation firefighters is just the way it is.
From the time we could remember, fire trucks, and fire stations were the things that excited us. Hell, I think i started drinking coffee as a kid, because that was what the firefighters I knew did.
For most of the country there was no diverse culture in the fire service, it was O'Malley, Ward, Santini, McDonald, and Kelly whose names we saw on lockers and jackets as children. Even us Scandanavians (squareheads) have had to push our way into the fray. To see a black or female firefighter was amazing as a child, but today they are just another firefighter going by on the truck or engine.
If we really want diversity, we need mentorship in minority communities. We need ethnic firefighters and fire officers to get out in the community and direct those kids towards the fire service, not lower standards.
How is the perception that minorities aren't capable of getting the job on their own merits a good thing?
For many departments, a minority is looked at as odd, but for many others it is the norm.
Either way, developing a culture in the community is going to take time.
However...it can be fostered through other channels.
Start a co-op at the high school level that puts them through the state firefighter certification course over a school year. (most departments in Texas require a certified fire academy certification to take their test)
One of the local HS's here has a tech training program with the local fire academy.
In closing:
My closest friends on the job are black and hispanic, one of the members of this board I have the highest respect for is female, and in the next twenty years I would love to see my fire service reflect the diversity of this great nation of ours. But...We have got to do it the right way!
We need to use groups like the Black or Hispanic Firefighters Associations to start mentorship programs in their communities. Women in the FS need to get involved in organizations like the Girl Scouts and Explorers to show young women that they can succeed in our field too.
This forum is a great place to start putting heads together that can have a positive impact, instead of fighting over who has the sickest light bar on their POV.
***Diversification is going to happen, is happening , and the days of a white male only fire service are gone. We can put our heads together and find ways to make this a positive thing, or we can go kicking and screaming into the long dark night with the same results.
Questions:
How do we recruit the best and brightest from all groups?
Who are our leaders amongst the minority communities, women included?
How can we get them involved in making the fire service a viable option for their youths?
Instead of letting governments dictate to us who is or isnt a proper candidate, why dont we set the bar for them?
Let us start with these questions and find a common ground that works for everyone involved.
TCSS
The London based Local Government Association is advocating women make up 15% of the fire service and minorities make up the same amount of the fire service as they do the community.
London Local Government Association
Fire brigade 'discriminating against white men'
Only women and people from ethnic minorities are allowed to attend four of the five open days being held by Avon Fire Service to attract new recruits.
The fire brigade said it was targeting specific groups because currently 97 per cent of its 921 employees are white men.
Phillip Davies, Tory MP for Shipley, said: "This sort of thing makes people's blood boil, and does more damage than good to race relations in this country.
"How would people react if women and black people were banned from an open day?
London Telegraph
Thanks Art for getting my brain going.
When read Art's blog on the BSFD recruits LODD I was incensed by not only the senselessness of it, but also the idea that by making a test easier, it would allow for more minority or women candidates to get the job.
I truly feel this is disrespectful to both groups.
The fire safety aspect of this has been discussed ad nauseum in the comments to Art's blog, so Ill stick with the diversity element of the issue.
I know some on here will think I am way off base and as a white male firefighter I do not understand what the diversification drive does for women and minorities...well brothers and sisters, you are wrong, and Ill tell you why.
My best friend in this service is black, and a captain. He and I disagree on politics, football teams, and what shape derriere is attractive.
When we talk politics, most of the guys in the station leave the room, afraid of witnessing a fight.
We talk race from both perspectives and diversification is a regular topic.
For both of us, it is important to see things from another point of view.
In short, I listen and try to learn from people who are different then me.
Do I know what it is to be black or female? Not in a million years, but I do make an effort to understand why other people think differently than I.
Mike is from Georgia, and since I spent a good 5 years of my career in Savannah, he knows I understand what life is like in the deep south (think 1876 ideas, versus todays).
It is the ability to communicate without worrying about being PC that gives both of us insight into the other side of the argument.
We both listen and learn, even when we disagree...and that is a lot!
The Dilemma
When we lower standards to hire a targeted portion of the population it hurts everyone, and not in the least the targeted group.
Think about it.
It says "hey, you aren't good enough to pass this, so we will make it easier so you have a chance"
That sure makes someone feel good about themselves and their community...right?
These candidates are set up for failure from the start.
How is someone who made a 72 on the test going to beat the guy who had to make a 100, come promotion time?
It isn't impossible, but it sure is an uphill battle.
So if we want diversification, lowering standards isn't the way.
Mentorship
Why do white boys want to be firefighters?
What drives so many white kids to the fire service?
For Irish and Italian American kids, the fire service was a traditional way out of poverty.
It was a job no one else wanted, it was dangerous, and something they took ownership of in a big way.
My moms side is Irish, and as a child my Firefighter Uncle was my role model.
I saw him going out and helping the community, being a positive force and helping others. That was the mentorship I was shown as a child, and like my uncle I became a firefighter.
For many of us, the fire service is where we will go after school. That is a culture that didn't happen overnight. It was cultivated and for many second, third fourth or fifth generation firefighters is just the way it is.
From the time we could remember, fire trucks, and fire stations were the things that excited us. Hell, I think i started drinking coffee as a kid, because that was what the firefighters I knew did.
For most of the country there was no diverse culture in the fire service, it was O'Malley, Ward, Santini, McDonald, and Kelly whose names we saw on lockers and jackets as children. Even us Scandanavians (squareheads) have had to push our way into the fray. To see a black or female firefighter was amazing as a child, but today they are just another firefighter going by on the truck or engine.
If we really want diversity, we need mentorship in minority communities. We need ethnic firefighters and fire officers to get out in the community and direct those kids towards the fire service, not lower standards.
How is the perception that minorities aren't capable of getting the job on their own merits a good thing?
For many departments, a minority is looked at as odd, but for many others it is the norm.
Either way, developing a culture in the community is going to take time.
However...it can be fostered through other channels.
Start a co-op at the high school level that puts them through the state firefighter certification course over a school year. (most departments in Texas require a certified fire academy certification to take their test)
One of the local HS's here has a tech training program with the local fire academy.
In closing:
My closest friends on the job are black and hispanic, one of the members of this board I have the highest respect for is female, and in the next twenty years I would love to see my fire service reflect the diversity of this great nation of ours. But...We have got to do it the right way!
We need to use groups like the Black or Hispanic Firefighters Associations to start mentorship programs in their communities. Women in the FS need to get involved in organizations like the Girl Scouts and Explorers to show young women that they can succeed in our field too.
This forum is a great place to start putting heads together that can have a positive impact, instead of fighting over who has the sickest light bar on their POV.
***Diversification is going to happen, is happening , and the days of a white male only fire service are gone. We can put our heads together and find ways to make this a positive thing, or we can go kicking and screaming into the long dark night with the same results.
Questions:
How do we recruit the best and brightest from all groups?
Who are our leaders amongst the minority communities, women included?
How can we get them involved in making the fire service a viable option for their youths?
Instead of letting governments dictate to us who is or isnt a proper candidate, why dont we set the bar for them?
Let us start with these questions and find a common ground that works for everyone involved.
TCSS
Add a Comment
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Comment by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on January 9, 2009 at 12:27pm
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I like the newest breed of, '"I paid for the courses, you owe me a job and don't think I'm going to do all of the shit jobs just because I'm new..." Those are my favourites!!
And THAT is what is killing the fire service and it is that attitude that is killing "firefighters".
It's no different than those who want to ignore the LODD reports. It's too much of a bummer and besides; that won't happen to me is the attitude that you find there.
Sorry, but I still say that the fire service needs to be very choosy unless we LIKE going to funerals.
TCSS.
Art
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Comment by Spanner 122 on January 9, 2009 at 10:15am
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Hi Art - I do also understand where Kali is coming from. There are many out there who don't come from the fire service, my class had a museum curator, a teacher, a car salesman, physiotherapist, mental hospital aide, etcc, etc. There are many more like us, but there are also some who do this job and it is just a job They come to work, they go home. They are not interested in history, in progress or the service itself, just the paycheque and the security. I feel this is what the new hiring practice is going to attract. I completely see where Kali is coming from, and you as well. There are many different kinds of firefighters, but it all breaks down to those who give a shit and those who don't, no matter where they came from. I like the newest breed of, '"I paid for the courses, you owe me a job and don't think I'm going to do all of the shit jobs just because I'm new..." Those are my favourites!!
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Spanner:
You pretty much made the point that I was trying to make to Kali.
I realize that with some, myself included, we were not "born" into the fire service.
We came to love the fire service for a number of reasons and didn't look at it for a paycheck and the benefits.
We took the time to "learn" about the fire service, including our life saving skills, the tradition and history.
Many today can barely demonstrate good skills and I would venture a guess that they haven't cracked a fire related book since they took training.
They want to do their rotation and go home.
TCSS.
Art
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Allen, that is another issue we have been discussing here as well... the "qualified" firefighters. The schools just pump these guys through and a very, very small percentage of them ever work fulltime. The colleges here, charge the full price of over $10 000 for a one year course, the province does not subsidize this course like almost all other college courses (most college courses here are $900-$2500 a semester.. not to be mistaken with University which is ridiculously expensive. lol), they allow anyone to take it, with the exception of one school that interviews, pump them through, pass everyone. I've heard stories of some of them crying, not being able to learn some of the classroom work, not being able to keep up in the yard, not grasping basic terms and yes, they all passed. Sad. And THOSE are your "QUALIFIED" firefighters. Great!
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Comment by Allen Wahlstrom on January 8, 2009 at 6:41pm
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There are just a lot of applicant who will never get on...too many for too few jobs. The competition is just too strong for most people to get a job today. 500 applicants for 1 job. I would guess in the dallas area it is close to 200 applicants per position, and most of these are certified firefighters.
A great example is the volunteer department I was on prior to moveing south. It had 7 or 8 state certified firefighters who tested for every department in the area and never got past the test. Most averaged about a 50% ontests taken. How they got thru the academy Ill never know. But, they were day paid ff's at that department, and you'd have thought they were seasoned pros for all their bluster. The last time I checked, onlny 1 had gotten on a career department. The rest worked crap jobs to pay the bills, and worked 2-3 shifts a week making $100 a day!
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Comment by JRF344 on January 8, 2009 at 6:26pm
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The funny thing about this whole hiring crap should be "Black and White" and not in the way everyone wants to accuse everyone of looking at the issue. When I say Black and White I absolutely do not mean race or color or any defining characteristic. You take the written test you pass or fail! You take the physical you pass or fail. Maybe the interview should have a screen between the candidate and the interviewing body. Then there would be no reason and no excuses. One more way the Goverment believing they are doing the right thing and clearly messing things up. Just a thought. I love my job and would be very offended if I did or did not get my job because I earned it.
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Allen, that sounds like some pretty clear grounds for discrimination if you ask me. It doesn't matter what colour of skin you have or what gender you are, if you are passed over because of this fact, you are being discriminated against. The reason no one fights against this is because they are afraid. And rightfully so, afraid of being labelled as a trouble maker and never being hired. Trouble maker. Seriously, this is the mentallity of those hiring for professional positions. Could you imagine any other profession (outside of emergency services) saying, "Don't bother to apply because you're white." Does it not sound ridiculous to anyone else?
In my city and many cities around me, the senoirity list is based on time served and a mark on an exam. It doesn't always make for the best officers, but neither does, "promote your buddy" or "promote to diversify." Departments that are following these processes are seriously undermining their own advancement. It is going to come out with the wash at some point when someone else is seriously injured or killed because they were being led by an unqualified officer. Even if it is not the officers fault, there will always be questions. Every time something happens involving a woman (and sometimes a minority, but those on my department who are not white men are equally as strong, intelligent and efficient, if not better as the majority of the men... I can say that because I know almost all 20 or so of them... lol) the reasoning is related to her gender. "If she was a man, that wouldn't have happened because she would be stronger."
Now imagine a woman who was promoted faster than a man has a serious incident with her crew... "well if she hadn't been promoted early, someone else would have been leading them and this would not have happened." No?
Those who say, and not including you Allen, that they were passed over due to gender or race, had better take a long hard look at the percentages of others being hired. RCMP did a clear Affirmative Action hiring many years ago (possibly two decades) and the result was an increase in women and minorities, overall, of 4.6%. Tiny, tiny increase. The rest at that point were still white men. White men were outraged when they were not hired... but the majority of them were still white men.
This is another fallout of this process. Some men who were not hired or who are on the job, become convinced that the woman or Asian or Muslim or black man TOOK THEIR JOB. This really saddens me. I was told by a coworker that he isn't sure about women on the department because he feels a woman took the place of his buddy who has also been trying for a few years (and is still not hired, likely because of this attitude). I reminded him that I also worked for nearly 6 years and 70 other WHITE MEN (yes, all white men in the three classes to follow mine) were hired. Did they also take his spot, or just work harder for it?
Ah, clearly I have lots of thoughts on this. And the Chief wonders why I turned down time and a half to track down women and beg them to apply!!!
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Do you really think 30K a year plus health and dental is enough to motivate ANYONE to risk their life to save a stranger, if it's only for the money?
There are a lot of easier ways to make 30K and they don't involve facing the very real possibility your own death on a regular basis.
Who said that they were going to risk their life?
If they have worked for minimum wage with no benefits or are losing their state aid because they have drawn the maximum, then what do you think they are going to do?
And if they have no expectations, then diversity rather than effort might just get them hired.
Strictly my opinion, but I have seen similar circumstances where I work. They apply because they want the MONEY. They don't understand that they lack the skills or that it requires them to be at work everyday and to have a decent attitude.
TCSS.
Art
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Ok so we take a long term look at the problem and are starting to come up with some solutions.
I would love to see 50 different ideas here...but, we all know that this is not a sexy conversation so many will not weigh in, and unfortunatley many who do will be so short sighted that their responses will only fan the flames of dissent in the ranks.
Kali, Spanner, I actually gave up testing for a number of years due to frustration at making the top 5 or 10 of a list and then not getting past the interview, or not even being offered an interview. I was the wrong sex, color or ethnicity and wasnt welcome. I had 2 BC or higher recommendations for Dallas FD and 2 of the 3 (who were black) told me to not even bother, that even if I made it on, I would never promote.
Am I bitter, no. Was I then..pretty much so. I had a job and had already progressed to Lt, so I was doing ok. But, I wanted a bigger challenge, and at the time felt I was denied because of my race. That is where I come from on this issue, and yet I am totally on board with a diverse fire service.
Firefighters like Spanner and Kali are what keeps the wheel turning. Hard work, determination, and the will to get it done, no matter how long it takes are what make firefighters, firefighters. Ask most career firefighters and Id bet most took the test at least 3 times before getting on the job.
So back to the question at hand...
Youth based programs aimed at target groups?
What other ideas do we have?
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Jenny, are you a firefighter? I ask because it seems your veiw on the fire department and mine are very different.
While I do agree that not as many children of firefighters are applying (although there are still many in each recruitment, maybe not as many as in past decades), I respectfully disagree with the rest of your post. Salaries in some areas where there is mainly volunteer seems to be a lot lower, as the Unions have a little less power in this area (in Canada at least), but other than that, the salaries are pretty good. I started low, we were without a contract and have to work out way through the classes, but it's climbing and I am now taking enough home to likely pay off my many, many bills in the next 6 months. The pay can be good and as Kali has pointed out, sometimes as high or higher than many other "white collar" professionals. If you put the work in, committee work and overtime, there are many making over $100 000 (this takes effort, not just showing up at 7 and going home at 5).
Schools offering programs? Every major college in Ontario offers a pre-service course, many universities offer the fire science degree. I know there are many in the States as well, because many Canadians travel down to take the courses. There are many provinces in Canada who insist you have NFPA 1001 and 1002 before applying already. Some departments insist you have a post secondary of some sort and yes, the pay out in the end is more than worth enrolling in a program. Not only is the pay pretty good, there are benefits (mine suck, but at least they are benefits), time off during the week with family, time off to travel with kids, participate in their sports and school programs, etc.
Now, I have to make specific mention of the job not being rewarding. I feel sorry for anyone in this career who cannot name at least a handful of times that something has touched them or they felt that an experience was rewarding in some way. It's impossible. - There have been times when I have helped a cancer patient, comforted a young teen as she was being strapped to a stretcher, helped stop the spread of a fire and actually been thanked by the home owners (which I always find weird), extricated someone out of a car, helped rescue a dog off an ice block, or have said a silent prayer for a child as she was pronounced. It can be tough, but if in those tough circumstances you can find strength, that in itself is rewarding.
AND, let's not forget the incredible dysfunctional family you are adopted into. Nothing beats that.
So, yes, there is a HUGE draw. Many cities in Ontario, even the smaller ones see almost or over 2000 applicants each time a test is written. There is no shortfall here, but mostly white men... and as far as I'm concerned, until programs are put in place to get kids interested and not push to hire them "right now", that's fine with me. Like I said, 6 years, 5 departments, 3 tries with the one that hired me (I was actually hired in two departments within a month), and it was all worth it and made the prize at the end that much sweeter.
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