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Thoughts on NFPA apparatus standards
OK, what’s your thoughts on NFPA apparatus standards. How far is this going to go? For the most part all are good, but still, there are a few. I personally feel in their goal to make trucks safer, they may be going a bit overboard. I’m going to take a guess here but 90% of all accidents are driver error, so why fix the truck? Before you know it there will be training wheels. I’m just whining because the truck we are about to purchase is 100 grand more then the last one we purchased 8 years ago. Is it any safer? Not that I can tell, there are a few more lights, a warning buzzer or 2, maybe another grab bar or slip plate, but basically the same. Yes I know costs go up annually, and in the last 2 years have made big jumps, but come on. The reason we are buying 2 years ahead of schedule is in 09 new NFPA standards will add an estimated 20 grand. I understand change is needed from time to time but do we need a black box to tell us it was driver error, or hooks for helmets, or single point air for the tires, when is enough enough? I’ll get off my soap box now.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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A $.40 bolt with a couple of $.10 nuts make a very effective governor. Placed under the accelerator pedal, once it's adjusted, then the lead foot can stand on it to their hearts content and the truck won't go any faster. But I guess thats not hi tech enough.
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Permalink Reply by Trainer on
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Wait a minute I got this; 40c bolt…..10c nut….look on lead foots face when he can’t get over 62…..priceless! sorry couldn't help myself.
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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People should read and understand the changes before commenting on this. There is costs associated with technology. Someone complained about the cost increase from the purchase price of a unit 8 years ago??? Come on, the world is a different place, everything costs more and they don't make that truck anymore... OUTDATED.
The list below is for January 1, 2009 purchases. Also, you need to know that there will be another change in the EPA engine cooling requirements for 2010 which will go into effect on January 1, 2010. In 2006, most engines where sold out by July of 2006 requiring all motors from that point on to meet the 2007 standard. This will be a problem for 2010 as well. The increase in 2007 was between $10,000 and $20,000 depending on engines and sizes. As of January 1, 2010 the Detroit motor will NO LONGER be available to the fire service industry.
2009 – NFPA 1901 Required Items:
EFFECTIVE DATE IS JANUARY 1, 2009. All contracts signed on or after this date will require the updated NFPA 1901 without exception.
This is the most substantial update since 1991 when cabs where enclosed.
There where many clarification and definitions added to the first 3 chapters.
Chapter 4:
A. Vehicle Data Recorder (VDR)
It will have a 48 hour loop all apparatus will come with the necessary software and cables to download this information.
What it will monitor:
1. Vehicle operation: Speed, Breaking, Engine RPM’s, Transmission gear and control
2. Seat belt and Seats: Was the seat occupied, was the seat belt clipped and was the seat around the occupant.
B. Tilt Table Test:
1. All apparatus will be stable to 26.5 degrees and must be tilt table tested.
2. If the tilt table test can’t be done the apparatus will have Electronic Stability Control (ESC).
C. Tire monitoring system:
1. All apparatus will be equipped with Tire Monitoring systems Such as the Cross Fire System
D. Top Speed:
1. Vehicles over 50,000# or 1250 water: 60mph
2. Vehicles 26-49,999 and less than 1250 water: 68mph
E. Required Certifications:
1. Optical (Warning light systems)
2. Siren
3. Breathing Air Systems
4. Foam (FoamPro type sytem)
5. CAFS
Certification from the manufacture of these devices stating that they have certified the Manufactures install locations and methods.
F. Documentation:
More required documentation with all new apparatus.
1. Load distribution Plan: Manufacturer will dictate the amount of weight in each compartment
2. Drive axel ratio
3. Maximum governed speed
4. Maximum tire speed rating for fire service use
These (2-4) will be added to the placards that are already in the cab.
5. Certification of complete NFPA 1901 compliance or statement of exception:
Most if not all apparatus will be delivered with the statement of exception. This will list all the missing items like the Hose and loose equipment. This statement will be signed by the Manufacturer and the receiving party (FD).
G. Additional required equipment:
1. Five (5) orange traffic cones
2. Five (5) Illuminated warning devices (Flares)
3. One (1) reflective vest for each seated postion
4. One (1) AED
H. Increase weight for firefighters in cab to 250#
Chapter 12:
A. DPF Clarification
1. Exhaust temp can not exceed 851 degrees
a. This will require a heat deflector (This is already on most new apparatus)
b. This will affect in station exhaust systems
Chapter 13 Electrical:
A. Tow hitch: If the apparatus is equipped with a tow hitch a continuous 45amp load is required this is in addition to the already required load.
B. Step and compartment lighting: Increased to 2fc required from 1fc
Chapter 14 Driver/Crew Area:
A. Seatbelts: 3pt belts 110” and Lapbelts 60”
1. Color: Red or Orange
B. Seatbelt Warning System: Required
1. Must have an audible and visual screen that is visible from both operator and officer postion.
C. Reflective striping: There must be reflective striping on ANY door that a firefighter will enter or exit from for any reason.
D. Fire Helmet Restraint: If helmets are going to be allowed in the cab they must be secured in collision tested restraint. Additional Label “DO NOT WEAR HELMET IN CAB” added to all new apparatus.
E. Cab Crash Testing: Must meet SAEJ 2420 or ECE 29 which includes side impact testing.
F. Mirrors: Must be electric.
Chapter 15 Body, Equipment, Compartment and Access Ladder mounting:
A. Access Ladders: minimum of 8” behind the ladder for boot clearance. Minimum of 3 point continues contact on all climbing areas.
B. Minimum Rear Striping: 50% of the rear of the apparatus will be Chevron stripped.
1. Colors: Red and either Reflective yellow or yellow green. No other colors will be allowed!
2. Stripe size: 6” stripe will be the only sizes.
C. Ground ladder storage: Ground ladders inside the body must be protected from temperatures above 212degrees.
D. Receivers: 2:0 – 1 safety rating for straight pull
Chapter 16 Pumps and Equipment:
A. All caps on pump panel need to be permanently secured to pump panel.
Chapter 19 Aerials:
A. Height and reach Ratings: NFPA is now stating how this is to be done.
B. Operation to Short Jack Side: If the apparatus is equipped with “Envelope Control Technology” operation to the short jack side will be allowed without override.
Chapter 24 Breathing Air:
A. Temperature sensing for all enclosed breathing air compressors both audible and visual over 140degrees.
B. Air quality monitoring system (this is already present on most units)
Chapter 25 Winches:
A. Spooling: Free Spooling clutch needs to be easily accessible.
Chapter 26 Trailers:
A. Type 1: tiller units
B. Type 2: Command and other self contained trailers
C. Type 3: Equipment trailer (Flatbeds for wildland equipment but limited to) Must meet all lower NFPA 1901 lower warning light requirements.
D. Types 1 and 2: All doors and mounted equipment like light towers must be wired to the tractor door open circuit.
The cost of all the required items will increase your apparatus between $15,000 and $25,000 with most of this cost in the VDR and seatbelt systems. This does not include the necessary increase every manufacture has to off set there cost increases.
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Permalink Reply by Jay Nicholson on
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I'm sure there's some oldtimers around who whined when closed cab apparatus were mandated, or when SCBA's came out, or when 3/4 boots were replaced by bunker pants! Bottom line, if these things help me do the job better and help ensure that I'll go home to my family after my shift, then I'm all for them! Stay safe people!
They whined when seats became available. Almost every apparatus change has been met with resistance.
If you moves a FF off the tailboard, then it will take longer to lay a line. This delay will injure/kill people. Put a roof over the cab and the officer won't be able to size up the incident until he actually gets on scene. Enclose the cab and the FF won't be able to size up enroute. Can't look over the cab anymore.
My opinion, there has to be a cost-to-benefit reason. Black boxes will probably save depts money by reducing lawsuits. Good. Pre-connect starting in the bed, BAD.
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OK,your going to have to point out why my 99 is outdated…I don’t see it. I embrace new technology as long as it does not affect longevity. We can’t afford to replace every 10 years, we buy every 10 but to replace a 30 year old unit. I did mention annual cost increase, I do believe they are currently at 3-5%, and I also stated that in the last couple of years its jumped dramatically. I do thank you for the print out on the new regs, and no I have not seen them all. I did mention the new EPA engine requirements, it's called tier 4, and Cat will also no longer offer one, you’ll have a choice of Cummins, International, and Mercedes. I learned a couple of new items yesterday from a Komatsu factory rep, the 851deg thing becomes a problem; In order to meet tier 3 they added basically a catalytic converter to the exhaust, this has to regenerate from time to time, when it does this the exhaust temp may reach as high as 1800deg, now this can be over ridden a few times but will eventually have to do it. You want to talk about new technology; the “black box” may already be outdated. I was sitting in this guys office monitoring the complete operating functions of an excavator, in real time, that was 50 miles away, talk about big brother watching. I also stated that for the most part the changes are good, they have come about from problems had, but they should not come about from operator error.
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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I guess I am not like the rest of you in thinking that progress is good. Yes, we have purchased new ladders (trucks) here that are not well liked, but it has nothing to do with new standards, it has to do with the committee, who are not on the floor and do not drive these, buying vehicles that do not function well in our city... or at all for that matter.
As for new standards, such as hooks for helmets (I believe they are to be containment in the instance that the truck has an accident... keeps the helmet from becoming a projectile), better hand rails and step plates, how can these be bad? A black box is bad? What if the driver doesn't make it? What if the driver is covering up for his own inadequacies and the truth needs to be known about the accident?
So, how about GPS to get to calls faster and more accurately? Of course dispatch will be able to see where we are at ALL times, so does this make GPS a bad thing? Or does it make it easier for dispatch to get rigs on scene as quickly as possible?
I don't know... not all changes are good changes, but are they going to inhibit us from doing our jobs?
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I like the fact of; "implanted just under the skin of their left buttocks", beats having it shoved down your throat, or inserted up.
This is a good $10 word.
facetiousness (noun): Websters Dictionary definition
Etymology:
Middle French facetieux, from facetie jest, from Latin facetia
Date:
1599
1 : joking or jesting often inappropriately : waggish
2 : meant to be humorous or funny : not serious
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Permalink Reply by Jay on
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All the new saftey standards are trying to do is to give us a better chance of coming home to our loved ones. I know most of us try to keep safe, but the truth is that there are the few people that have no regard for their brothers and sisters saftey. En route to the scene is one of the most dangerous parts of the job for a firefighter (sadly enough) and for the public. The "black boxes" are there to protect the driver in a sence. Just think of it this way; If the wreck wasn't your fault, the "black box" may be the only way you can prove your innocence. The box can also make it so people, who are irresponsible behind the wheel, accountable.
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Permalink Reply by James on
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In 2009 on new apparatus they are required to have chevron on the back of the truck.
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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on
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I used to wonder how NFPA came up with all these "standards" and wonder how they could ever expect us to live up to some of them. I attended an NFPA meeting once and I learned a lot about how they arrive at a "consensus" standard. I know a few folks that work for NFPA in the fire sector and they aren't just a bunch of yo-yos sitting in a room trying to make things more difficult for us Joes on the street humpin' our butts off while they make the rules. Heaven knows I can't afford it myself but if I could I would definitely become an NFPA Voting Member and sit on the committees. You can if you have the $$, time & committment to do it.
Lets face it, after every one gets over the "oh S*%t" factor and settles down to really study the changes & not reacting to the CHANGE, the new standards will be better received. We do that, react before we are comfortable with something new.
I looked @ the new 1901 (2008) standards and I really don't see much to bitch about except the price tags. Then again, if a fire truck already costs $300,000.00 (bare bones) with no equipment, what is another $20,000.00? Especially if it might save 1 life? If it makes us better @ what we do?
I LIKE that they want the center of gravity to be not more than 80% of the vehicle height. Weight and center of gravity on a big vehicle is important to the handling & performance of the apparatus. The trucking industry has been working on this for a long time. Designing the apparatus to compensate for the IN SERVICE weight makes sense too. We don't take into account how much the vehcile is going to weigh once we get all the equippment on it. That is also related to the tire ratings that are new too. The top speed is related directly to the GVWR - I'm sorry but THAT makes SENSE to me too. When you get a big vehicle rolling at say 70 or 75 mph it takes a LOT LONGER to stop the darn thing than you realize it might. Then the load shift takes over and those things are factors in crashing fire trucks on the way to emergencies. Granted the accidents are also attributed to opperator error but this kind of stuff negates the adrenaline rush & tunnel vision we don't seem to be able to control on our own.
Diesel particulate filters are GOOD things. I get a terrible headache from diesel fumes.
The minimum length of the seat belts is another "good" revision. Some trucks don't have seatbelts long enough to account for the bulk of PPE or big people, or tall people. I'm a little iffy on the necessity of regulating the "color" of the seatbelts. I would think yellow would be a better color than orange or red. Passenger vehicles have had seat belt warning devices on them for years. Why not put them in fire trucks? We get in a hurry & don't want to use the seat belts. We should, they save lives & those studies have been being done for years. Laws mandate the wearing of seatbelts in passenger vehicles. We are people going someplace, in a hurry, when we ride in fire trucks. I didn't really study the helmet storage while the vehicle is in motion but if you aren't wearing it (they recommend we don't) it is impractical to hold it so there needs to be somewhere to put it till you get to the scene.
The standard for the occupant protection is nothing new, they probably have some heftier roll cages, door beams or something. I didn't pay much attention to that one as I remember. A friend of mine is in a wheel chair permanently because he was in the cab of a apparatus that crashed & rolled about 10 yrs ago. It took a couple sets of extrication equipment to get him out. His injuries were related to the fact that he was wearing an air pack but no seat belt so he & the air pack were thrown around in the cab. The air pack damaged his spine, so yes I LIKE the seatbelts & occupancy protection.
Shoot, there was something in there about pump ratings & tank size but since I'm not looking @ it I can't really remember what those were but it seemed to make sense to me when I read them.
Ok, I can say that I don't really "get" the concept of using chevrons on the back @ a . . 45 degree angle(?) from the center. All those lights & reflective material SHOULD enable a driver to SEE that BIG Truck in front of them.
It makes sense to me (although we don't have a ladder or aerial yet) that there should be a mechanism to keep the things from being extended past their rated length/weight rating. Or at least I *think* that is what it was about. Like I said, we haven't looked @ ladders yet but will have to in a couple of years.
Oh yea, the data recorder. Well I would say that other than the cost factor, it can't be all bad. Then you know WHEN you need better driver training. WHO needs the training & if you are effective in what you are teaching your engineers. Might even tell you who shouldn't be an engineer & could save some wear & tear on your apparatus.
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Ted,
I'm confused about the pre-connect issue here. On both engines and the tanker our preconnects are cross lays in a compartment in front of the hosebed not IN the hosebed itself. The hose is already connected to the discharge on the top of the truck. The hose IN the hosebed on top is laid lengthwise ready to connect to the discharges @ the rear. The pre-connects are 150 ft or 200 ft of 1 1/2" and 2 1/2" hose. We pull sections off the top if we need to extend the hose. We don't normally have to but it can be done quickly. I keep thinking about what you said. Maybe changing the hose lay is the answer not where the connection is. I think you can see where the pre connects are in the pictures under apparatus on our website so you can see what I am talking about. I just can't get your idea in my head about losing hose by connecting it in the hosebed & pulling it off the back. :( I guess we just don't do things that way around here.
http://www.romefire.com/apparatus.html
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Permalink Reply by Big Al Dente on
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Anything to make us safe is ok in my cookbook for success.
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