Without getting into the pro's and con's of having junior firefighter / fire explorer involvement,  I read a post that discussed a topic that police have been attempting to get removed off the internet. While I realize that the is the USA, where we have freedom of speech, this is not my concern at all. What I don't like is seeing certain discussions, created by adults, and participated by minors.

One recent link on homemade chemical bombs went into detail on how to make one of your own. However, law enforcement folks feel differently. One internet article I read stated:

"Police in Japan are urging internet service providers to block websites which publish instructions on how to produce the hydrogen sulfide gas."

It's not that I have anything against juniors or explorers, it's just that some of the materials presented here on the FFN are not suitable, in my opinion, for children. It's not that the material cannot be easily found on the internet. It is the point that they shouldn't learn here on the FFN how to do things that could hurt themselves or others. Remember, we are talking about children here, not adults. 

Children are not done maturing and often times make decisions that just don't make sense. We should not be their enablers. People should post responsibly because children are openly allowed to participate in discussions with adults.

If a junior / explorer tried something at home that they learned here on the FFN, and was hurt or killed in the process, would there be any legal ramifications for the person who posted the materials or the FFN?

Maybe it's time to consider restricting access to those over the age of 18?

Anyone else feel the same way?  Am I being too overcautious here? 


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no your not being overcautious my kid is 15 and showed me a couple of websites that had actual video of how to make your own flashbang teargas and a few other items that could lead to a very bad sit rep so yes to some discussions
This is similar to the post I started about resticting Juniors. The problem we all came up with, is how do we age verify and make sure that they are not here? I agree we tend to post a lot of very valuable informaton. But, what about non-fire personnel on here also? This site has become a wealth of knowledge and I think it is only getting better. I agree with you 100%, just don't know where to draw the line or how to enforce it.

I would also strongly caution all members to be careful when answering some of the "fishing" questions. If the poster is not a known person or member, be leary of how you answer specific questions.

I don't feel you are being overcautious, and I agree with the impetus of this thread. But as has already been stated, I'm not sure how one could verify age.

That being said, I'll add a different twist. Yes there are young people (minors) on this and many other sites who may be tempted to try something displayed or described. Some might be injured in the attempt. But when there are "adults" over the age of 18 who post videos of themselves being pulled behind vehicles in the snow, or shooting bottle rockets out of their butts at a fire station, I'm not sure that the some of those under 18 have more maturity than some over the age. Just a thought.

"Life's tough......It's even tougher if you're stupid."
If either the WebChief or WebTeam were a little more interactive a lot of the junior crap that goes on in here wouldn't. But like so many other sites, moderators are neither present nor feasible.

We could ignore some of the posts but that fails on two accounts: Some people will respond without looking to see who the person is that's posting and thus feed into that person's attention deficit or desire to be a shit-stirrer and; Some people will look at the poster's profile and then challenge them for posting and it becomes a free for all. I don't see any easy answer but then, I don't think it calls for one.

This is a site with some fairly good information, ideas, training and a wealth of knowledge and experience, not to mention some rather spot-on people. That there are assholes and wannabes creeping in should not be a surprise to anyone, not much can be done to prevent it.

Mostly I ignore the juniors. I have no interest in being friends with children and for the most part most of them in here seem to have no interest in advice from old people. Nor do they see themselves as anything less than my/our equal. Hehe right!

That they fail to comprehend the laws that govern what they can and can not do either is indicative of their immaturity or the incompetence of their "department".

I will in fact quote Nathan Byrant, "...thats not fair to jr firefighters, i am as of now a jr. firefighter, and its not fair to restrict us to be on this site if we are under 18 years of age.
Fair? to a child? If you want fair go to school, it's designed to be "fair" to and for children. Moreover regardless of what you (or any child) thinks, children don't make the rules, we do. And no matter what your department may call you there really is no such thing as a junior firefighter. You fail every test required by the NFPA.

And Nathan, you really have no ground to stand on when criticizing someone's spelling. There are a few errors of your own. And sarcasm from a child? Really, do you think that makes your argument any stronger?

We appreciate the discussion but this isn't going to happen. First, there's really no way to verify age. And more realistic, there are countless other internet forums for the fire service where people can find information, blogs where training and tactics are discussed. While we understand the intent, it just isn't realistically going to happen here.

If you see discussions that are going in the wrong direction, posting misleading or false information, or 'dangerous' information, please simply report them.

I dont think jr ffs should be able to post discussions other than on the jr/explorer section. It would be impossible to keep them off the site.
I dont think it would matter because kids lie about there age all the time.
Ok...ummm. I'll take responsibilty for posting a previous response in reply of a new post regarding said topic which included a link to information on chemical gas. I did just what was mentioned and simply replied to a repeat post without seeing who I was replying to. I agree that information like that should not be supplied to minors, even though i's easy access for them.
As for age authentication, there are sites that require photo ID (ie. a driver's licence) for age verification. You copy it, black or white out your master number, and send it in.
Should FFN be a restricted site? Can't answer that right now.
Ok I'll play the devils advocate here. We have every damn right to be on here just as much as you do because we are all on here for the same reason But first I would like to comment on Nathan's post. My personal opinion Nathan is that comments and attitudes have become almost the expectation that we see coming from a majority of jrs/explores. You are talking like you are a 620 officer (6 months experience thinking they have 20 years.) There was no reason to include the word damn in your post. We all would have understood what you were saying without. It is this little "extra" that stimulate such response from senior members. I can not defend an attitude like that, no matter how squared away you are has a JRFF, a bad attitude can ruin team morale. That is a lesson that "young adults" have a hard time comprehending, in my opinion.

Anywho, back to being the Devils Advocate. I have always support efficient and sensible jr programs. There is no better place than a young man or woman being surrounded by sound good standing fire departments. I would much rather have them there then someplace that does not teach them some bearing and good morals. This includes this web site.

I have no issue with jrs/explores on this site, as long has they are hear to learn and be a productive member of the team. There have been a few instances were the jr has a post or says something that may not sit well with some members. We as the leaders and sculptures of our future members in this service need to remember to be a little more mindful to them. I'm not saying that we need to just ignore some of the ignorance that takes place from our jrs. This should be expected, we were all ignorant to this service at one time, and some of us still.

Ignorance is not a bad thing. Defined it is- Without education or knowledge, unaware or uninformed. Is this not what jrs/exploreers are? Shouldn't it be our job to change this and educate them? I have had plenty of adults that I have educated that have left me banging my head against the closest solid object. Why do we get so worked up about today’s youth? I know why, (I think) because we have so many expectations, both communicated and non-communicated. These expectations are different in Pend Oreille County Wa. from Dekalb County Ga. We share some general expectations but the way we deliver and communicate those vary greatly. Ignorance can turn to stupidity when they are unwilling to educate and make appropriate change.

So now I’ll hop off of my soap box. I don’t know if this post will change any minds. I am not looking for everyone to have a Coke® and a smile and be friends. I would like to see all of us take a measure of what we are brining to the table.

Be safe and learn something new today.
Web Chief, Verifying that someone is 18 is not the issue. Having someone click the join box that asks the question, are you 18 makes users minimum age just that... 18.

This takes away the 14-year old poser factor. There is no way obviously to verify a persons age. You are relying on someone to be honest. To continue allowing the free for all attitude and mentality that a 14-year old is an equal is idiotic. Just like using the justification to not take action because everyone else is providing access to minors.

If you remove the nonsense JRFF posts, you end up having more substance to the site. What you have going for this site are some pretty Davy firefighters sharing very incident specific information. Some of the material is not suitable for children.

What's wrong with taking the high road here and leading by example?

And I meant Savy Firefighters, not Davy...
We are not going to restrict access to 18 and over only. If people report posts, we deal with them. Most of the time, they are not reported. The forums are an important, but just one of many features of this site. As I said, report problems using the contact link at the bottom of the page. You're talking about a handful of problem 'children' (both adult and under 18), so report them.

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