Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Oldman on January 14, 2009 at 11:46am

I see a lot of "IF'S".
IF there is money to fund the program
IF the program teaches citizens how to make informed decisions
IF the program teaches how to safely defend
IF it is used in conjunction with a Fire Wise initiative.

Why not? People do not have to be firefighters in order to protect their homes. But I do see the probability of somebody acting stupid in a no stupid zone.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by turk182 on January 14, 2009 at 11:55am

Hopefully the would know when it is a lost cause and be able to get out without becoming trapped.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tony P on January 14, 2009 at 7:23pm

"Should I Stay or Should I Go?" This is a concept we've been pushing to the community here for years. Victoria is on the south east corner of Australia. We have bad wildfires. We have very large wildfires. In the past we had civilians dying in fires - a large percentage of those deaths were because people were leaving home too late. They were leaving a building that would give them very good protection from radiant heat (radiant heat is the killer) for the dangers of being exposed to the wildfire. They would leave their homes too late, and become confused and dioriented in the smoke and heat. They would crash into trees or other vehicles also madly trying to escape.

A lot of research has gone into this problem in Australia. From that research our concepts were developed. Simply put, we tell people who live in high risk areas to prepare their homes. To prepare themselves. And most importantly, to decide whether or not they personally would be able to stay and fight. If people don't think they'd be able to stay, then we tell them to leave early, leave on the morning of a bad day and go somewhere safer. If you can see the smoke rising then perhaps it's too late to leave. If the smoke is all around you, and you can hear and see the fire then it's definitely too late to leave!

The fire service I'm a member of provides a lot of information to the public. In risk areas we actively push our concepts to the community. We do this constantly. All the individual Brigades in the risk areas are invovled. This link will show you the range of publications we are currently using:
http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/publications/index.htm
this one is the basic for home owners:
http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/documents/living-bush-workbook/Litb_full_...

Will people do stupid things? Undoubtedly some will. But teach residents to plan, to prepare, to understand the risk. Teach them that just because their house is being threatened by a wildfire doesn't mean that there will be a firetruck available to sit out the front. Stupid behaviour? We think that getting into your car and leaving when you can see flames at the end of your street is the height of stupidity!

As I said above, we implemented this type of program years ago, and have been following it ever since. It works. Is it perfect? No, but then nothing is. Nothing. Is it guaranteed to save all life? No, but then no such guarantee can ever be made.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jeffery on January 14, 2009 at 7:38pm

Thats insane. are these houses on wells on town water will there be water even if the try?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tony P on January 14, 2009 at 8:21pm

Insane? I think not. The program may be on trial as the article suggests, but it's hardly a new idea. It's an idea that has been proven to work. Please read my earlier post, have a look at a couple of our publications. There are people in the fire services on the west coast of the USA who are aware of our program, aware of how we implemented it and why. Our fire risk and conditions are very similar to theirs.

We tell people to prepare, to stay outside as the firefront approaches and put out any small spot fires that start. To go inside to safety (screened by solid walls from the radiant heat) when the firefront arrives. To stay inside until the front has passed, to then go outside and extinguish the small fires that will have started. We don not tell people to attempt to fight the wildfire itself. A well prepared house is defensible, it can be saved from an approaching wildfire.

We have people and homes in high risk areas that are on town water, others would be on tank supplies. To do things as we suggest doesn't require a huge amount of water - it requires a supply that won't be interrupted and people prepared to do the work and yes, take the risk of defending their home. I've not heard of anyone losing their life from attempting to defend a properly prepared home - and believe me, with that being our oft stated preferred option the media would jump on any case that occurred!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by FETC on January 14, 2009 at 8:36pm

I do not live in an area with wind driven wild fires as explained. Seems though looking at other threads, posts and pictures that the problem is geographics, terrain and building construction. The first two are probably un-fixable unless the state decides to take your land and not allow anyone to rebuild.

So the last one, appears to be controllable. Is there not fire resistant type-1 residential construction? After watching the news clips of the witch fire, it appeared many fires started from radiant heat like Tony suggests, most were attics burning from an open gable vent. Maybe someone out to look at redesigning the attic ventilation system from the inside?

Seems to me that if someone is rebuilding a million dollar home, they got some money and they should invest heavily in Type-1 Construction, with built-in fire protection systems, (interior residential sprinklers and exterior protection systems) and spend some of that money on reducing the hazardous terrain growth.

Lastly, someone out to "build-in" a shelter-in-place refuge, a place in the basement or underground for people who refuse to evacuate and plan on staying to fight.

But what do I know.... we are buried in 3 feet of snow currently.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Shannon Pieper, FireRescue Magazine on January 14, 2009 at 8:44pm

I'll admit it sounds scary at first, but as a San Diego resident, I'm open to new ideas for structure protection in the WUI, because it's too much to expect fire departments to protect all houses. Mandatory evacuations are never really mandatory anyway, and this gives responsible homeowners an alternative. Other posts indicated that the program needs to have the right funding and educational components, and that's key. But I do believe that it's also time for those who build in the interface to start taking responsibility for their safety... when it's possible to do so. On a side note, watch the February issue of FireRescue magazine for an update on the Leave Early or Stay and Defend program that's currently being tested by the IAFC.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mark Montgomery on January 14, 2009 at 9:16pm

This has been practised in Australia for a number of years now, without significant loss of life. The most important decisions that has to be made, and made early is "Do I stay and defend, or do I evacuate".

For more information have a look at http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/residents/index.htm and http://www.bushfire.nsw.gov.au/dsp_content.cfm?cat_id=1001

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tony P on January 15, 2009 at 8:11pm

You have it pretty well right FETC. One correction though of a misunderstanding that others may also have gained. Our studies show that it's not normally radiant heat that ignites houses, it's wind blown embers. These embers will lodge in any possible spot and that's how the houses ignite. Open vents into attic spaces would be a certain entering point - firewood stacked against a house, wooden furniture against the house, garden beds and mulch against a house, even door mats. All of those (and more) are spots which will catch embers and start a fire. These sorts of small fires are the ones we tell people to extinguish as a fire approaches and to check for after the front has passed.

Can people be forced into building fire resistant houses? We think so, and there are restrictions placed on building methods in many 'at risk' areas. An application for a building permit is refused if certain standards are not covered in the building plans.

Sprinklers? Internal sprinkler systems are great of course for more than wildfire! External systems are reccomended. With this though, some people here have installed garden type sprinkler systems on the roof of their house - in the normal strong wind conditions that occur with wildfires, these are of limited benefit as the wind will take the spray away from the building. A better method is to install normal sprinkler heads under the eaves so that as the heat builds the sprinklers will spray down ove the walls. Garden style sprinklers would work in this way as well, but would have to be turned on - and if this is done too early with a limited water supply, you may run out of water before the fire actually arrives.

An underground shelter built with the house? Basements are extrmeley rare here, so this isn't put forward as an option, but it's been found that even the normal external house walls will provide protection form the heat of a passing fire. We tell people to group inthe room furthest from the fire front, to go from there to check each room regularly, to check in the roof space (attic space) for ember entry. The radiant heat of a wildfire is what kills - both people and stock. It's this heat that we must protect ourselves from as much as possible.

Have a look at the links I posted, even though you don't have the wildfire risk, you might find the publications interesting. People other than FETC who are in wildfire areas should definitely find them interesting!

As for your 3 feet of snow FETC, you're welcome to it! I like visiting snow, but I'm more than happy not to have to live with it!!!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Aussie_Wildfire on January 15, 2009 at 11:24pm

I have been there, done that. am I the only firefighter on this site to have stayed and defended his home in a wildfire?
Our system here in Victoria works. 300 homes are in my local area and a wildfire came through. We lost 2 homes that the home owners left. All the rest where saved by the home owners.
I have sent Michael Schlags, all our Fire department range of publications to see what he thinks, as I was shocked to see suburbs burnt during the Santa barbra fires. You can not have a engine at each house, you need help, that's where the home owner can help defend their own home. Yes some home owners will make mistakes but firefighters make mistakes too. Give the public some credit

To read my story see my blog= WILDFIRE At Home In a Wildfire http://www.firefighternation.com/profiles/blogs/wildfire-at-home-in...

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tony P on January 16, 2009 at 4:46pm

Here is a link to a local (Victoria, Australia) morning TV chat show. The interviewee is Russell Rees, the Chief Fire Officer of the Country Fire Authority of Victoria, the CFA. The interview fits into this thread because it's part of the way we (the CFA) constantly try to educate people in our State.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2009/01/15/2466597.htm

This sort of program does work, we've proved it. As Wildfire said just above, he's actually done this - not many firefighters have that first hand knowledge, we're usually out with the trucks! I hope you've read the blog he links to in his post.

Please watch the video I've linked to, it's worth it. We're heading towards the hottest part of the year here, we've only had one spell of very bad fire weather and can expect more. And Russell being interviewed in summer uniform complete with medal ribbons makes it all look far more official doesn't it?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Tony P on January 16, 2009 at 4:56pm

You're one up on me mate, and I hope it stays that way! As I live in the suburbs, we can fervently hope that I don't have to do that sort of thing.

Good trick sending those publications to Mike, he's just the sort of person who's likely to push awareness around his area. CalFire are aware of what we do, as are other FD's in California and other parts of the US west coast and Canada - that comes from all the interaction and exchanging of crews we've done during our respective bad fires. But it never hurts to pass the info along to anyone that might be interested. Which is why I've writtten a bit here and on other threads on the web.

Another thread here on the Nation refers to Mutual Aid from 3000 miles away, where a poster asked our mate Mike Schlags for some information. How about Mutual Aid from over the Pacific? We've exchanged that a few times now :)

• ▶ Reply

▶ Reply to Discussion

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• Next ›
• Page