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It's About Tolerance
I'm guessing it's a result of the season but thanks to the FFN WebTeam, they've posted yet another controversial "news" item about a firehouse that was ordered to remove a creche.
And again, people are starting to line up to decry the loss of freedom of speech and religion, blindly ignoring the realities of it all. It (like the merry xmas sign in n. andover ma) was placed on a firehouse which, unless proven otherwise, is municipal property (local government) which prohibits the endorsement or sponsorship of any religion. In other words, at all government levels government needs to be religiously neutral.
This neutrality in no diminishes any one religion, it simply does not promote one over any other. Why are people so damned threatened about this issue? The government is not shutting down places of worship or preventing services. As it is any established religion is not subject to property taxes or income taxes. Would you rather see those exclusions removed? By being excluded it prevents local and federal government from in some way harassing religion and establishes a clear separation between the two.
This post is about tolerance, and many people think that by being ordered to remove religious symbols from public buildings is a form of intolerance. Perhaps, but regardless of the motivation it is based on the constitution. The reason may be intolerance but the outcome is soundly based on the constitution.
The other 'hot' topic is racism. Whether it's about tests and testing, hiring practices, forwarding of emails or nooses it all comes about as a result of intolerance. Some people can not tolerate it when somebody else gets something they wanted. Some people still have personal problems with people of a different color. Why again is that? It's 2009 and a week or so away from 2010 and there are still people with a civil war mentality when it comes to race.
Interestingly there have not been any recent threads from members, or any from the WebTeam about sexual discrimination in the fire service. Have we conquered that? Are women now readily accepted as equals in departments? What about gays and lesbians? Does your department accept those of a different sexual orientation? Or of a different sex? Do people still think women should be at home? There are some that do. And why would anyone be threatened by a gay man or woman? Or is it only straight men that have the right to make salacious comments and inappropriate actions?
No one is readily going to post that women should not be firefighters or that gays and lesbians shouldnt. They know that they will be immediately shot down if not outright removed. As well they should be. And no one is going to say that no black, latino or asian should not be firefighters, for the same reason. Although I'm sure that there are those that strongly believe they shouldn't.
Yet bring up an issue of religion and there seems to be no reserve, no issue in claiming that this nation is a christian one only and that if people don't like it they should leave this country, and that the removal of their religious symbols from public property is nothing more than an attack on them personally and on their religious beliefs. I see this as nothing more than a christian taliban.
So folks, it's christmas, how about showing some of that christian love, compassion, acceptance and tolerance that jesus himself taught. How can you claim yourself to be a christian when jesus himself would be shamed by your behavior. Unless of course, jesus meant that only for other christians, although historically, it wasn't until long after his death that people identified themselves as christian. So I'm pretty sure he was teaching that everyone should love and respect all others, not just those that believe as you do.
And again, people are starting to line up to decry the loss of freedom of speech and religion, blindly ignoring the realities of it all. It (like the merry xmas sign in n. andover ma) was placed on a firehouse which, unless proven otherwise, is municipal property (local government) which prohibits the endorsement or sponsorship of any religion. In other words, at all government levels government needs to be religiously neutral.
This neutrality in no diminishes any one religion, it simply does not promote one over any other. Why are people so damned threatened about this issue? The government is not shutting down places of worship or preventing services. As it is any established religion is not subject to property taxes or income taxes. Would you rather see those exclusions removed? By being excluded it prevents local and federal government from in some way harassing religion and establishes a clear separation between the two.
This post is about tolerance, and many people think that by being ordered to remove religious symbols from public buildings is a form of intolerance. Perhaps, but regardless of the motivation it is based on the constitution. The reason may be intolerance but the outcome is soundly based on the constitution.
The other 'hot' topic is racism. Whether it's about tests and testing, hiring practices, forwarding of emails or nooses it all comes about as a result of intolerance. Some people can not tolerate it when somebody else gets something they wanted. Some people still have personal problems with people of a different color. Why again is that? It's 2009 and a week or so away from 2010 and there are still people with a civil war mentality when it comes to race.
Interestingly there have not been any recent threads from members, or any from the WebTeam about sexual discrimination in the fire service. Have we conquered that? Are women now readily accepted as equals in departments? What about gays and lesbians? Does your department accept those of a different sexual orientation? Or of a different sex? Do people still think women should be at home? There are some that do. And why would anyone be threatened by a gay man or woman? Or is it only straight men that have the right to make salacious comments and inappropriate actions?
No one is readily going to post that women should not be firefighters or that gays and lesbians shouldnt. They know that they will be immediately shot down if not outright removed. As well they should be. And no one is going to say that no black, latino or asian should not be firefighters, for the same reason. Although I'm sure that there are those that strongly believe they shouldn't.
Yet bring up an issue of religion and there seems to be no reserve, no issue in claiming that this nation is a christian one only and that if people don't like it they should leave this country, and that the removal of their religious symbols from public property is nothing more than an attack on them personally and on their religious beliefs. I see this as nothing more than a christian taliban.
So folks, it's christmas, how about showing some of that christian love, compassion, acceptance and tolerance that jesus himself taught. How can you claim yourself to be a christian when jesus himself would be shamed by your behavior. Unless of course, jesus meant that only for other christians, although historically, it wasn't until long after his death that people identified themselves as christian. So I'm pretty sure he was teaching that everyone should love and respect all others, not just those that believe as you do.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ron Ayotte on
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John... your post is balls on accurate.
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Permalink Reply by Vic Silverfish on
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Well said, mate!
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Permalink Reply by Doug on
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Tolerance, to me, isn't the right word. In my own brain's dictionary, tolerance simply means to have to put up with something while keeping your mouth shut. Being tolerant of something is not necessarily being accepting of it.
So, what am I tolerant of? Currently, I am tolerant of some of the ridiculous dribble that shows up on these "whacker" threads, and Fire Rescue Magazine.
What am I accepting of? I am accepting of race, sexuality, different sexual orientations and different religions in the fire, ems and leo industry. I regard it as being normal.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Tolerate -
1. to allow the existence, presence, practice, or act of without prohibition or hindrance; permit.
2. to endure without repugnance; put up with: I can tolerate laziness, but not incompetence.
Tolerance -
1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.
Doug, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I am smart enough to know that some people will never (or not willingly) accept those that are 'different'. In that case to simply tolerate them would be sufficient. While it would be nice to think that we all would be accepted without regard to our differences, it's a bit naive. If someone is at least willing to tolerate someone else, it's a starting point. Once someone can be tolerated, acceptance (and tolerance) won't be that far behind. Hopefully.
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Permalink Reply by Jake Fireman on
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Jack
Jack jack jack jack jack
Are you pissin people off again? (hehehe) Shame on you
You should know by now it is all about "MY" rights, "MY" privledges, "MY" religion! Where do you think you are? The land of the 'free'?
This was all brought about to me very early in my career. I was raised as a christian. The incredible, wonderful woman I married was raised as a jew. Many years ago I was complaining about the county removing a religious display of something from some sort of county facility...HOW DARE THEY I loudly proclaimed...bla bla bla...blustering and storming around. Then on December 12th when I came home from shift, my wife very gently asked me if we had spun the dradle at work, she asked me if we had hung out the HAPPY HANNAKUH banner from the station, or if we had lit the manorrah..HUH? Ohhhhhhhhhhhh now I get it...it really isnt all about me and my beliefs is it.
There are millions of people who do not "believe" the way i do. I DO NOT have to agree with what they believe, I do however have to RESPECT what they believe. Although my wife considers herself a "recovering jew", she still loves the traditions. Many people have many traditions. In reality Christmas for many in America and around the world has become gifts, trees, frosty the freakin snowman etc. Easter is bunnies and chicks, and chocolate. Thats OK for those folks. Believe what you will. I have my beliefs and I respect yours.
Although I do believe that America was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs, I do not and will not shove those beliefs down the throats of others. Neither do I believe it is UN AMERICAN. Use your patriotism for another arguement...not this one. Public agencies are just that...PUBLIC...."owned" if you will by ALL of us, not just the Christian, the jew, The Muslim etc. Cities and counties have a right and obligation to be for everybody, not just some.
Have a Merry Christmas all, it is just not a fight worth having. Nobody is trying to take God out of YOUR holiday. How YOU celebrate is up to you!
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Jake Jake Jake Jake Jake,
It is never my intent to piss off people, sometimes it's just collateral damage. In this case I've tried very hard NOT to piss anyone off...intentionally. I'm starting to feel a kumbay ya moment coming on...let's hope it passes.
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Oh God yes....we dont want that!
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Permalink Reply by Fireyladd - Retired Chief Sharp on
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Jack, its just the emotion of the season. Your trying to impress us with your soft and tender side. Its ok Bro. I know the real person you are. Good post Bro. Kumbie Yah Indeed!
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Jack:
Is KAYA saying "come on please" to mean "are you serious"? That's not being very tolerant.
You know; it took me quite a while to figure out where you were on this, but frankly, the discussions get going and go off on so many tangents that it is hard to pull the critical key points.
Along with critical thinking, I believe that some has lost reasonable thinking. I swear; I think people become so locked in to what they are going to retort with that they don't get the drift of what was posted. Or someone will cherry pick the post and only respond to the issues that swat them on the nose.
Two years ago, somewhere up north, a fire station, realizing that it wasn't a good idea to decorate the outside, decorated the inside. A lady walking by looked into the window and could see the tree, so she complained and all of the decorations INSIDE the fire station had to be removed. Now; when we say that we should separate church and state and that all government levels should not display religious artifacts, does that include a Christmas tree and Santa Claus and the reindeers?
But, I am hip to the tolerance gig. I agree that it all comes down to people respecting each other with patience and tolerance.
As far as the other concerns mentioned; neutrality should be the order of the day. I think that just about anything should be allowed to be discussed, but once the TOS is violated and then again, then instead of it becoming a moral dilemma placing a drain on the resources here, shut it down and try again.
See; it's not the website's fault. It's because people can't seem to understand that you have wide latitude under the terms of service, but still, can't seem to stay within the parameters and then, when the WT takes action, THEY are the bad guys? I have over ten thousand posts at 3-4 different websites and been participating in them since 2001 and to date, I have had ONE thread pulled and have never been booted or banned.
And I have been in what Paul Grimwood would call some "good scrapes".
You should be able to passionately proffer your opinion without violating your terms of service and if you have to look at what you write and think about it before you hit send, then chances are you shouldn't.
On the other hand, if you are poking the nest with a stick, then expect to get stung. Or is that the goal?
Regardless; when we talk about tolerance, maybe that should include the people who run this website. After all, we are visiting in their house.
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Art,
I too am confused here. With regard to the mention of TOS I brought that up tongue in cheek in another discussion wherein I was apparently responding too often and to wordily.
I don't believe I've ever broken much less infringed on the TOS here at ffn. There may have been a reply or two that was pulled but if so (I don't keep track) it was pulled by the WC for reasons that may have approached censorship. But true, his house, his rules.
Yet again one of our more prolific as well as outstanding member of this community sees fit to caution me on how to write or submit. Come on Art, I know full well what I'm writing and in full control of my faculties when I hit 'enter'. As for looking at what I write and thinking about it before I hit send, I do that every time. It's called editing and proof reading. (Which might explain the general alliance to the rules of grammar and typically correct spelling. Mostly on my own but with some reliance on spell check.)
Define poking the nest with a stick? I reply to comments, as do many others in here. I readily admit that I may on occasion lace my comments with some sardonic wit but that is just a small pleasure of which I will avail myself.
Funny though with mention of the TOS, so many comments were made in some of these discussions regarding this holiday that (IMO) did indeed cross the line. I pointed it out to the WC and he admitted that he had been more than remiss in minding the store. I'm actually thinking he may be watching these discussions more closely as a result. Yet, nary a word or reprimand so one could presume that all is well in ffn land.
While a few of us did get tangential to the topic in another thread I believe that this one has stayed true to course. This one was in fact a result of the christmas sign discussion wherein many people openly (intentionally or otherwise) expressed a considerable degree of intolerance. Wherefore were thou?
It's all well and good to try and remain above the fray, but to then swoop down to make a point or two to one or two people seems a bit arbitrary or biased. In the just mentioned christmas sign thread I fully expected to see you there, contributing your voice of reason. Sadly that didn't (that I ever saw) happen.
I understand that people did (and do) quickly take sides. That I take the unpopular side has nothing to do with contrariness and everything to do with trying to be tolerant of people with differing views. That I enjoy it is neither here nor there.
P.s. Your reference to KAYA, if you look at his profile he is a firefighter in istanbul so I took that reference to be more of a request for friends and conversation. I accepted his request and added him to my friends list and have chatted a bit with him. That he can write english as well as he does is a testament to his abilities. That his english is so similar to that of some of the members here that are native born is most interesting. I often wonder what their excuse is.
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