The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Incident Commander: In The Vehicle or On The Street?
We are sending our Battalion Chiefs and Command staff through the Blue Card Command System, which was produced by the Brunacinis, and based on the updated Fire Command model that Phoenix has been using for years. Our department has been a "run it from the street" ICS model for years that has slowly evolved to running most ops from the back of their command buggy (outside). The Blue Card very strongly advocates running the IC from inside the command vehicle (F-250 in our case). This is a completely foreign concept for our Batt Chiefs and the idea so far is meeting some resistance. I would like to hear from anyone who has actually run IC from both positions and give me some pros and cons on the inside the vehicle approach. Thanks
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by David Martinez on
-
I can see points to both sides of the in the buggy or in the street.
Having served on some small departments, I have had to run IC from both. I think the arriving BC or who ever winds up with the ball needs to assess whats needed from him at that incident as far as buggy or street. As has been said, on a small incident - mvc, vehicle fire, dumpster, etc. - the street is perfectly acceptable. But as you get into a technical rescue or structural fire, lets face it - you cannot keep your span of control standing on the street for very long. The IC needs to be out of the street and somewhat isolated.
Let me say that again - somewhat isolated.
What we have found works best for us is to have the IC sit in the officer's seat of the first in unit (truck, engine, or rescue). Usually this seat gives almost the same view as he would have from the street (maybe a bit better in inclement weather and due to height). This also affords him access to truck radios and the tech available there along with room for boards, maps and what ever he may need to spread out. All these things are in the cab of all our units anyway so why not use them? The IC is in a good position to observe the sights and sounds of the incident.
What we dont do is isolate him completely though. He is still available to face to face with while still keeping him clear of most unnecessary distractions. Keep the door open or at least the window. Also, if IC requires an assistant we put them in the drivers seat or rear area. This assistant will usually function as assistant/ accountability officer.
Another advantage of IC in the first due unit is its always a set place. Units know exactly where to go check in. Rehab is usually not to far away where it can be observed. This gives IC some more control with out having to get too distracted - just look up and take a glance.
We can try to make things more complicated than they need to be but this is simple for us. Our crews like it because it removes guess work about where and who IC is. Its easy for them to check in and out with the accountability officer, and get assignments. It keeps the IC close to the action without getting caught up in it and is free from the distractions of the bystanders. Our training emphasizes not distracting the IC and to use the chain of command (we are combination and 90 percent volunteer so yes it can be accomplished even with limited people or limited officer response).
In addition we also utilize mutual aid a great deal so this also gives incoming units a good place to look for IC everytime. The aid of not having to search for IC is a great help in getting units working faster.
Hope this look helps.
-
Permalink Reply by Ron Ayotte on
-
Some IC's can be fully focused and still not have a clue...
-
Permalink Reply by Lee Jones on
-
I am currently taking the online course of blue card command, I work as a firefighter, as a frustrated fire dispatcher, and as a on scene chiefs aid or communications advisor. I worked a lot of fires from SFD, Apartments, and large commercial buildings. No where does his class teach the I.C. not being in view of the incident, he advised just being isolated. I like what they are teaching in this class and I agree with it. Especially since I was recently involved in a LODD as the MABAS Dispatcher where the I.C. was not in a stationary position but involved in the tactical tasks and I caught a small blurp of radio traffic of the ic saying firefighter down. He Didn't contact me at all and advise a mayday I had to self initiate it. The biggest problem is The Incident commander trying to be directly involved in operations. A incident command is a strategic planner, not a operations chief. You really need to take the class and learn what they are teaching. They teach the fast attack IC, with the transition to stationary IC. Most department won't allow there company officer to assume this roll. We rather just wait for the chief to show up to make the decisions. Now regarding 360's no they won't allows be possible but you do the best you can. A 360 is more important on a SFD or Apartment then a high rise. That's also why they have the sector chiefs or division chiefs to report there finding to the I.C. This class is a big change for a lot of departments. You take it and mold it to your department's area. Not Everything will fit perfectly and they admit that in the class you will have to adapt it your department. Just my Thoughts.
-
Permalink Reply by capcityff on
-
I disagree completely. If everyone knows how to do their job then it shouldn't matter. They should be able to report back to the IC with what's going on. Even if he IS out of the vehicle, he still can't see everything.
Once again, you need to look at the type of department you have. In my case, I work for a large, urban department. 80% of our houses are rowhomes. You can't do a 360 anyway in that case unless you are running around the block and through alleys. It just doesn't work. On top of that, we have hundreds of high rises. Can't really do it with that either. We also have the fire out, or close to out before the Battalion Chief even gets there for the most part. We have 33 engines and 16 trucks in 62 square miles of land. That means that there will be engines on scene within minutes. The crews are almost always going to do an aggressive interior attack and stop the fire early. They will never sit outside and wait for someone to formally take command. They know their job and can do it themselves. The BFC will be listening to sizeups and what's happening on scene while he's enroute.
About the dispatcher, we don't use them for help. Our dispatchers are terrible and none of us would trust them. The chief won't miss anything on the radio. There are two battalion chiefs dispatched on every box alarm. Then each chief has an aide that drives and assists them.
That's how it works here at least.
-
Permalink Reply by FETC on
-
Ron I didn't insinuate anything, you pointed it out to me. Here is your quote again - For 99% of our incidents...how can one expect one's personnel to give 110% on a bitter cold or a steamy hot day when one is commanding the incident from the front seat of a blast furnace like heater in winter, max a/c ice box rivaling in summer command vehicle?
You see I think you missed my point. Being in the street at times can be distracting. The environment (noise) positioned too close to an engine or aerial can be a distraction with radio traffic. Heck a portable radio mic and speaker can be distracting, nobody holds it up to their ear like a headset.
Now, being fully focused and still not having a clue is a poor decision on tapping a guy for BC and has nothing to do with this thread.
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
-
And that has exactly what to do with where the IC is physically located?
-
Permalink Reply by Ron Ayotte on
-
"Heck a portable radio mic and speaker can be distracting, nobody holds it up to their ear like a headset."
Kind of like the headset worn by a Phenix FD IC in the overview section of the blue card system video?
http://www.bluecardcommand.com/program-overview.html
-
-
Most of the US Fire Service does not have this type of assistance from their dispatch. Dispatch is at best overtaxed, short handed, dispatching for many mutual aid towns or even cross dispatchers with PD as well. Some are seeing the cost savings with a collaborative system 100+ towns with one maybe two dispatchers on duty. Most do not dedicate a dispatcher to any given fire. Many FD owned dispatch centers understand the need for a dedicated dispatcher to assist the incident commander with missing radio calls and maydays. Where I work, dispatch assigns you a tactical frequency to free up the primary channel and they are not listening to the tactical. You as a single commander or a team have to monitor all the traffic, maydays to include EDS - Mayday alert activations as they don't make it back to the dispatch center due to distance, terrain, topography etc.
Therefore standing in the street with all the other distractions, noise, useless talk and chat that is associated with people coming and going around street command, no high wattage dispatcher listening over your shoulder is not the best set-up around here. I suspect many who use the system describe having there own reasons. But IMO a 100w mobile in a car or suburban is easier to hear, volume controlled, the room is quieter, much more controlled and allows you to monitor multiple frequencies without the need to hear from a 5W portable or wear a combersome headset from the back of the buggy. Headsets are designed to keep out all those distractions of the environment so you can hear the radio traffic. I just choose to do that in the air conditioning...
The system debated here says being in a vehicle with good tactical positioning, (sight) is the best bang for your command buck. I agree if you have other limiting factors that some bigger cities do not have.
-
-
Here is a good video (not a big job) but a good example of the "cleaniness" control factor of staying in your car instead of commanding/communicating from the street. He gets a 360 from the engine company officer and uses the CAN situational report on different tactical operations to further paint a picture of whats happening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh32-G8skUo&feature=related
Most of the video the IC is in a controlled environment and at the end of the clip he takes it to the street and there is a difference in the environment.
-
Permalink Reply by 10ym4ugkyzp4d on
-
There is no "right" answer to this question here. Some IC's are just that an IC, they have an OPS, DIV, SOF, PIO's, Ect. they can focus on IC level tasks. Others do not have that option, they must do it all.Even within the same department this can change from call to call. Being in the IC vehicle or out is not the question. The question should be, what do you do to insure that you are doing the job in front of you?
Just becase a concept works in P.F.D. does not mean that it can or will work in Four Corners USA. These should be looked at more as concepts, and ideas then hard fast rules. Put this ideas in the tool box, train with them, tweak them to your department( staffing, call volume, type of call, Ect).
-
Permalink Reply by glenn usdin on
-
somehow this always turns into a Phoenix vs. everyplace else discussion.
if a department can't devote one person to actually be the IC, then it is difficult to believe they are committed to firefighter safety and survival.
the problem is that at 99% of all incidents, a roving mobile IC in the street gets everything done, and probably does it pretty well.
it's that 1/10th of 1% of incidents where things go sour, and they go sour very quickly, where the roving exterior mobile IC quickly gets overwhelmed.
read the fatality reports. these are not hypothetical firehouse kitchen discussions. these document actual incidents where our people died. and sadly, at most of those incidents, highly trained and skilled people were caught off-guard in rapidly evolving situations. if you ask any of them, they will tell you how quickly things went bad.
one of the posters above was a dispatcher on a recent FF fatality in Illinois. it was a bread and butter dwelling fire and it went bad very quickly and one FF died and another was seriously hurt.
the problem is nobody can predict when an incident is going badly.
You could run a 5 alarm fire with FDNY from your handi-talkie and everything goes perfectly, and a week later a run of the mill basement fire kills a veteran fire captain.
The position of the group that wants the IC in a fixed interior position is that when the crap hits the fan, it's too late to try and regroup and get the headsets out and move to a nice command vehicle.
If you do it the organized way every time your forces go to work, the one time, possibly the ONLY time in your entire career, that the heightened level of command is needed, you will be ready.
To this day, we are arguing over a management tool that will prevent excitement when things go badly at our incidents. It's not like the IC isn't already there. It's not like we are arguing smooth bores over fog tips.
C'mon folks, let your IC be in a place where they are most prepared for the worst thing that can happen.
I don't get it.
-
Permalink Reply by Curt Varone on
-
Glenn
If it is so vitally important that the IC be isolated and insulated and quiet, why not leave him in the fire station? What possible purpose does it serve to risk injury to him driving to the scene to sit in his vehicle? Maybe the AC (or heat) in his vehicle might break... or someone might need him to roll a window down, distract him, and he might miss a message?????
You can't have it both ways.
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
