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Full-Time Firefighters That Work Part-Time with Other Departments
I recently came across a problem within a particular department and would like you guys' input on the situation and any advice on the matter.
Lets say firefighter A is a full time firefighter at XYZ Department. Firefighter A wants to work at another department part time to gain more experience and knowledge as well as supplement income. Firefighter A has had part time jobs before as do most other firefighters in his department do. The chief of the department tells firefighter A that he can't work part time for another department because that is "his" policy. The chiefs policy states that any part time job has to be approved by the fire chief and if approval is granted then the firefighter cannot work more than 20 miles away or 15 mins away response time. In firefighter A's department there is another firefighter, who we will call firefighter B. Firefighter B has a part job that is 45 miles away. And lets say there is another firefighter (Firefighter C). Firefighter C recently started a part time job without the approval of the fire chief. The fire chief has yet to say anything to Firefighter B or Firefighter C on their part time jobs (they aren't with another fire department), but the chief has told firefighter A that he cannot work at another department.
There are laws stating that if you are required to be on call on your personal time then you are to be paid. But the paid time for being on call the person on call must be confined to certain regulations and not be able to go a certain number of milea away etc.
I know there are firefighter that carry pagers and are paged to go to fires all the time and are not paid for on call time, but then again they are not required to respond. Taking that into consideration, then how can the fire chief tell Firefigher A what he can and cannot do on his personal time.
Give me your point of view and any legal advice you have for Firefigher A. What would you do if you were in Firefigher A's position.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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The IAFF has relaxed its rules on Two hatters. Of course it is preferred that a full time firefighter not volutnteer or work part time elsewhere. Although, if the department is solely POC or volunteer, and not a composite department, the IAFF is more likely to turn a blind eyes. If a fulltimer is working at a composite department, he will more than likely be investigated and can lose his full time employment for it.
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Permalink Reply by Sparky3317 on
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Spanner,
If a full time firefighter works a composite department secondary to his primary department what can he be investigated for?
Also if his department union okays him to work at that secondary composite department can he still be investigated by the IAFF?
Like said before I am not union just trying to learn as much as possible.
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Permalink Reply by perry firefighter cert on
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All I can say about this is so much for being A hero
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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Spanner, the IAFF hasn't relaxed their international by-laws. They have decided to let the individual states deal with the issue should someone file charges against a member. I am curious about losing your job over it though. Municipal or government unions in public safety are not a closed shop in my state (therefore not mandatory union membership) we actually have some members who choose to not be members on their own.
So if you were brought up on charges from the union, explain how the union would fire you? You don't work for the union, you are just a paying member.
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I think you would be hard pressed to find any union that okays one of their firefighters to work as a volunteer in a composite department.
IAFF bylaws state that you are not to work as a volunteer firefighter in any other jurisdiction once you are employed by a municipality (not exact words of course, but you understand). If you are found to be doing this, you can be removed from your Union. Most Unionized departments have a no contracting out clause, which means, once you are removed from the Union, you may also then be removed from your job.
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I know of multiple departments that their unions have allowed this thats why I was asking what can the firefighter be investigated for?
Whats the difference from working as a volunteer or call firefighter on a non composite to working as one on a composite department?
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I just stated above on what you mentioned. In Canada, you will not find many, if any unionized departments that are not a closed shop = no contracting out.
The Union cannot fire a member, they cannot even bring disciplinary actions against them (local), but if you are working for a closed shop department, you can technically lose your employment for not meeting all stipulations of employment.
I will never understand the person who believes it is okay to work for a department that has wages, benefits and contracts bargained for and won by a union, but it's not okay to be a part of that union. I am by no means a "you must be unionized" fist pounder. There are a couple of departments around us that are not a part of the IAFF, but if the department is unionized and someone can't see the benefits of being a part of both (department and union), I just find that odd. You're either in or you're out. I would hope any of these people have a healthy, problem free career and never need the help of their collective agreement.
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Union regulations! Why does a composite department even need fulltimers, if other fulltimers are willing to walk in and work for free (or a quarter of the rate and no paid benefits)? It's about the potential of job losses and stealing a job from another firefighter.
I'm part of a composite department and we could use more full time positions, simply because of growth and response times in now very dense urban areas that used to be considered rural. We would never lose our fulltime staff, but it would be tougher to increase those ranks if management could say, "you have full time firefighters from Anytown working as volunteers, why do we need to expand?" It's a grey area. If the next town over was trying to expand their full time ranks, would you go in and work for free?
I know some states are different than others. A union that allows a firefighter to work as a volunteer in a composite department has a much different interpretation of their agreement with the IAFF than most.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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It is doubtful that the union can terminate an employee for being a two hatter and would have a tough time doing so. It is possible the union membership can vote the person out of the union, but that may not address the issue of being a two hatter.
For us, one does not have to be in the union, but dues are automatically taken out because the union is the negotiating authority of the membership. If such an issue were to happen, a person would still receive the same wages, benefits as unionized members. If they got themselves into an issue, then the union would not have to back them, but it would be tough to terminate someone just because they are with another dept.
If such an issue were to be raise, it is really up to management to set the rule that a member of dept "A" can't work for or be affiliated with another FD. If there were such a rule then it would be tough to defend someone for being affiliated elsewhere and most unions wouldn't put up a fight against this anyway. If mgmt is fine with members being affiliated elsewhere, there really isn't much a union can do about it.
Josh hits on some points such as getting hurt elsewhere etc. Looking at it from the IAFF perspective, they union fought hard for such issues as heart and lung and cancer presumptives and so forth. So if working for a non union shop, it can be argued one was exposed not with their primary dept, but with a non union shop. The other issue the IAFF sees is that when a union member works as a part time FF, it takes a spot or chance for a FT FF or for FT FF's to unionize.
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All I can say about this is so much for being A hero
What does that have to do with anything?
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John, as with the illness issue... not every state has a "heart and lung" bill. My state you would have a hard time trying to prove the cancer issue happened because of the fire service.
Spanner - Canada and US are different then. It is not a closed shop with municipal firefighters. In some cases, non-union firefighters do pay the same dues because they reap the same benefits negotiated by the union body. I believe it is a law. Now if it was a private business, then yes it can be a closed shop. Termination of your job would never happen over the union issue, you would just get voted out.
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First off the department administrators don't care about the agreement, it is not with them. They care about running their department on a budget.
I know unionized department's that have temporary fulltime firefighters working (allowed by LAW) and the union can't do anything about it. Fulltime no benefits can keep for up to 364 days. Called management rights.
The union doesn't run the department.
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