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Charging for Services
I know this has been discussed before but here we go again.
San Miguel Fire District To Charge For Being In Car Crash?
Residents Living Outside District Would Be Charged Fee
7:17 pm PST January 11, 2010
SAN DIEGO -- An area of San Diego County is considering charging a fee for
being involved in a car accident.
The new proposal from the San Miguel Fire District would charge those living
outside the district a fee for their involvement in a car crash.
"You would be charged if you were the cause of a traffic accident or are
required our services for a rescue, based on the actual cost for services,"
said San Miguel Fire District Chief August Ghio.
The fees range from $390 to more than $2,000. If there is a car fire or
gasoline is spilled, the charge could be $570. If a helicopter is needed,
$2,100 may be charged.
"They are our guests and they come to visit family and friends . it doesn't
make sense to me," said Arkan Sahib, a resident within the district.
Rincon doesn't live within the district and he supports the idea even though
he could possibly be charged a fee.
"Sounds pretty good right there to me because you always need firefighters
and if your house is burning and they're short ... What can I say?" said
Rincon.
The district covers a 47-square mile area in the eastern portion of the
county, and with a $2.6 million shortfall the fire district said it is
necessary.
"We are faced with really catastrophic budget cycles right now," said Ghio.
Ghio said they need more revenue to continue to provide the same service.
"All of our firefighters took a 9 percent reduction in pay because they're
paying their own retirement now where they didn't in the past. We had to let
go of an engine company. We de-staffed a nine-person engine company to
manage," said Ghio.
He said they don't like charging for services, but if it's not approved
they'll have to make more cuts.
The San Miguel Fire Board will vote on the fee proposal on Jan. 14.
If approved, the fees would be implemented in about two months.
San Miguel Fire District To Charge For Being In Car Crash?
Residents Living Outside District Would Be Charged Fee
7:17 pm PST January 11, 2010
SAN DIEGO -- An area of San Diego County is considering charging a fee for
being involved in a car accident.
The new proposal from the San Miguel Fire District would charge those living
outside the district a fee for their involvement in a car crash.
"You would be charged if you were the cause of a traffic accident or are
required our services for a rescue, based on the actual cost for services,"
said San Miguel Fire District Chief August Ghio.
The fees range from $390 to more than $2,000. If there is a car fire or
gasoline is spilled, the charge could be $570. If a helicopter is needed,
$2,100 may be charged.
"They are our guests and they come to visit family and friends . it doesn't
make sense to me," said Arkan Sahib, a resident within the district.
Rincon doesn't live within the district and he supports the idea even though
he could possibly be charged a fee.
"Sounds pretty good right there to me because you always need firefighters
and if your house is burning and they're short ... What can I say?" said
Rincon.
The district covers a 47-square mile area in the eastern portion of the
county, and with a $2.6 million shortfall the fire district said it is
necessary.
"We are faced with really catastrophic budget cycles right now," said Ghio.
Ghio said they need more revenue to continue to provide the same service.
"All of our firefighters took a 9 percent reduction in pay because they're
paying their own retirement now where they didn't in the past. We had to let
go of an engine company. We de-staffed a nine-person engine company to
manage," said Ghio.
He said they don't like charging for services, but if it's not approved
they'll have to make more cuts.
The San Miguel Fire Board will vote on the fee proposal on Jan. 14.
If approved, the fees would be implemented in about two months.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Fireyladd - Retired Chief Sharp on
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Makes sense to me. We havnt yet charged someone but we have looked at it for this type of call for people not living in our area.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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All of our firefighters took a 9 percent reduction in pay because they're paying their own retirement now where they didn't in the past. We had to let go of an engine company. We de-staffed a nine-person engine company to manage," said Ghio.
Perhaps in years past I would be making an argument against such costs or fees, but in today's world and economic times with revenues drying up and the dreaded tax increase or pay reductions and staffing cuts are looked as the only possible solutions to tackle such issues, then I do think it is time to think more creatively. Now the issue can be that this is a tax system and people pay taxes for services, but the visitors really don't. Will this make people stop visiting? perhaps a very few, but perhaps it can mean extra precautions are taken to avoid an incident. For the most part insurance will pick up such costs, so maybe such measures may help initiate people to be covered.
Either way, I can see such measures making people more responsible for their actions and it shouldn't be on the backs of the tax payers, nor the decrease in safety due to cuts, or even the the decrease of wages and benefits of firefighters for some of these costs incurred by transients.
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Permalink Reply by Trainer on
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Illinois has a law that allows us to charge out of district people. Now I'm going to get a little sidetracked here, we can charge for MA to a structure fire, never have and I don't know why, my homeowners insurance policy charges me for fire dept services but won't pay the dept in my taxing district, but charging for a fire just won't look good, just another way the insurance company sticks it to you. As for the travelers, we can charge up to $375 per hour per rig and $75 per hour per man but try not to jab anyone to bad, most calls run around $500, don't charge for all, stop and go's or drive by's but if we preform a service, then the bill goes out. Not a big money maker but does help to buy some equipment.
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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My department has for a few years billed for extended responses. Haz mat ops are billed to the company who is responsible for the spill. Involved extrication from collisions are billed to the vehicle insurance, (if they have any) and some extended fire ops have been billed. We don't force bill so some never get paid, but every little bit helps.
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Permalink Reply by Jay Nicholson on
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Some additional info from today's SDUT.
Ghio said the proposed fee would be sought for insured motorists who don’t live in the district and are found at fault in traffic incidents. A Sacramento-area company, Fire Recovery USA, would be hired to recover the money.
Ghio said the district is already billing for certain calls, such as hazardous waste cleanups, with a recovery rate of about 9 percent. Fire Recovery USA claims a recovery rate of more than 60 percent.
Company President Mike Rivera said Fire Recovery USA works with about 100 fire departments nationwide. The departments are not charged, but the company takes 17 percent of the money it recovers.
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Permalink Reply by Gordon Kuhn on
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Hi I`m talking from a South Africa perspective. And better in my city Pretoria.
We do charge people here for the service we rendered. iI we take out a rescue tool, the bill starts, and all the tools for that. If we do a structural fire, we charge the people. the amount of vehicle`s, been despatched. then we charge for the vehicle, vehicle`s been used, the crew is included in that.
The goverment has a set price for what we may charge on a normal household fire., but as soon as you have a mansion of a place the value is more, we can charge more.
A Building fire hasn`t got a set price,and we also charge for the water.
We charge residents and people outside our area.
Gordon
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Permalink Reply by WCFPD 2006 on
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Trainer we do the same as you, 9 times out of 10 when we charge some one out of district the persons insurance pays it.
Honestly when your tax payers are keeping you a float it does not seem fair to NOT charge some one who is not paying taxes.
again like your dept. it is not a ton but has been enough to buy/replace some equipment
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9%....that's not good, neither is 60%, I'd say we're close to 95% but we have state law behind us.
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Permalink Reply by Sally on
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Our local fire board brought this up at the last meeting.
The chief said that he had gotten a phone call from an insurance agent asking who to send the check to for the car accident from the previous week. The chief said the agent explained that many policies for home and auto include coverage for fees from fire and EMS calls. Policy currently doesn't stipulate billing for services, so he couldn't take the check. He told the agent that the department accepts donations, but the insurance agent said policy didn't allow for a donation, only for fees and costs charged.
By writing into their policies a procedure to bill for services when services are covered by insurance, the department could then collect the money from the insurance companies when it's available. Not having a policy in place is literally closing the door on a big source of revenue for the departments.
The rub lies in the manner in which the policy change is explained to the public, who may be hesistant to call for help if they DON'T have insurance. If people think they have to pay for every trip a fire truck or ambulance makes on their behalf, they may not make the call when needed. On the other hand, we all know how often fire departments get called to put out a fire that resulted from someone burning trash near the dry grass behind their house, or from drunkenly shooting fireworks into their garage, where they store piles of gasoline-laden rags. And how often fire departments go back to the same place for the same thing, over and over.
And tax-payers are supporting emergency services in their communities, so perhaps pursuing fee collection from those who are not in the community - who don't pay taxes for the services they use - might be a way to recoup some fees.
I don't know; it may be an answer. The campground outside town is a favorite place for hunters/bikers to hang out and get drunk. At least once or twice a month, our EMS and/or fire department is called out there to respond to something resulting from drunken behavior. And there are a few familiar faces from year to year. Getting a bill for a few hundred dollars might have a sobering effect on some of the repeat offenders.
Same goes for the folks who are out there building bonfires that can be seen from space during a burn-ban. Our department blew an engine recently responding to a fire on top a ridge, during a burn-ban. A couple of out-of-town drunk hunters had decided to build a huge fire at the end of the day, and it got out of control. It was the fifth wildfire call in two days and the departments older truckers couldn't keep up with the demand. Now our department is down a truck.
Tough times call for tough decisions.
Don't envy departments looking at having to make these decisions.
I'll be interested in hearing what other departments are doing to make this a workable solution to take into existing easy-money sources of revenue.
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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We have been charging fees to out-of-district, non-district, non-taxpaying users of our services since 1987. Up to then, the trustees were completely against it, even though it would add much needed revenue, thanks to their borrow and spend ways. At first, it was a flat rate of $100. Then, Illinois passed the law that allowed us $125 per vehicle per hour and $35 dollars per hour per man. There was no stipulation for a minimum OR a maximum. Recently, the law was changed again to allow for $250 per apparatus per hour and $70 per hour per man. We do not charge mutual aid customers. This program has brought in thousands of dollars to our firefighters. We put the money from these calls into equipment fund for the purchase of equipment. We have had great success. When all else fails, we turn it over to our attorney who is very persuasive.
Very few have been left on the table.
Now; if citizens don't like the idea of you charging out of district, you could tell them that you are going to raise THEIR rates so you can off set the cost of delivering free service to complete strangers. You can also go the more positive route and tell them that you keep lower to them because you have other revenue streams with include charging those who don't pay into the district for service. They will call you a genius.
TCSS.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Todd on
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I agree with Sally's information.......Almost all Auto and Homeowners Insurance policies have built in charges they pay the fire dept's. responding to wrecks and structure fires even if they are in your district. The policy holder does not see the bill from the fire service because it is billed directly to the insurance company for the set fees provided in the policy for the dept. emergency response.....Non-insured people are not charged.......they also have companies out their that can handle the billing for the dept. which does not turn the dept. into a debt collection agency they do it for you.....Lots of departments may have to look into this due to the economy of today as an extra resource of funding ......I spoke to a person last week that told me of a dept. that had recouped almost 80% of their operating budget from billing ins. companies for responses.
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Let me clarify what I was saying: Our Department, under the supervision of the board of trustees will bill for ALL out of district user charges associated with a legal request for our assistance.
We WILL NOT bill individuals or insurance companies of our taxpayers for our services, unless there are extraordinary circumstances and expenses involved with a response, such as contamination to equipment that cannot be de-contaminated. We just had a property damage incident in our district. I was asked if we would accept a check from their insurance carrier. I said "No". We'll take a donation if you are so inclined. If we need to take in more money, then we will look at a tax referendum. If it were to be voted down, then I would look at billing insurance companies. Our service costs money and if your income doesn't match your expense, then you are going to get into trouble. And THEN you need a new fire truck.
Good luck.
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