Why do we buy apparatus the way we do

I've been in the fire business since 1978. Was on 2 engine committees and getting ready to order a third and I still don't understand why the fire service does what we do. By that I mean ordering engines like each fire company is so much different then the other.
Trucks are starting to cost upwards of 1 Million, Engines half a million. Why, because everyone wants something different.
Our company has two of the best designed engines we ever had. One is a engine the other a squrt. We're relacing both so instead of saying give me this, you already have the plans we like the equipment and nothing has changed. But why not..because the people on THIS committee didn't design the engines and THEY can do it better. We were told by the Peirce dealer that it would cost $40G to take the boom off the squrt and redo the box and refrub the rest of the engine. But 200G to leave the boom on and refrub it. WHA.....HUH....Come on....Oh of course if you left the boom on there wouldn't be a need for a second engine.
But if I was a manufacturer I would offer very little options. One box for engines with choice of tank and pump size. Maybe seating choice. How much would something like this cost. A whole lot less then what we pay now. Let's say the basic engine with 750 tank and 1250 pump 6 man cab cost $200,000. Why because they can build more with the same parts and components for less. you save money by building and buying in bulk.
We need to change the way we do business. With the economy the way it is I'm sure our tax payers will start to look more closely at our spending and asking us to cut back. Of course will this happen, no because dealers what to make the sale, and fire departments are on the slowest to make radical changes.

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Permalink Reply by Bill Muehsam on October 13, 2008 at 2:48pm

The variables in ordering a new apparatus, whether it's an Engine, Truck, Tanker, or Rescue are endless. The main factors should be these: District (fire load)-Urban/Suburban/Rural. Water Supply: Hydrants or "bring your own" (tankers and/or drafting), Budget, Manpower, Mutual Aid (is "help" coming), Equipment needs, etc. As you put all these factors together, then you get an idea of what type of apparatus you need and how it will be configured, and finally, what it will cost. I wish there was some "miracle" answer for you, but there just isn't. There is not a "one size fits all" Engine out there.

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Permalink Reply by Just Plain Craig Moyer on October 13, 2008 at 4:10pm

Bill I understand some of things you say but how much do they really mean. My comments are capitalized (because I don't know how to make them bold)
"The variables in ordering a new apparatus, whether it's an Engine, Truck, Tanker, or Rescue are endless. The main factors should be these: District (fire load)-Urban/Suburban/Rural. Water Supply: Hydrants or "bring your own" (tankers and/or drafting) THIS IS WERE YOU GET INTO TANK SIZE OPTIONS HAVING THE CHOICE OF 750-1000-1500 REDUCES CHOICES AND COST. IF YOU NEED A TANKER THEN YOU GO TO A TANKER BODY WITH THE CHOICE OF 1500-2000-2500-3000. Budget, BY STANDARDIZING YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING BUT REDUCE COST. ManpoweR, I SEE PEOPLE USE THIS AS A REASON FOR BUYING THIS OR THAT ENGINE. I CAN'T SEE ONE OPTION BESIDES PRECONNECTED RESCUE EQUIPMENT OR HOSE LINES WHICH THEY ALREADY HAVE. OUR SQURT WAS BOUGHT WITH "MANPOWER IN MIND BECAUSE YOU COULD PUT THE BOOM THROUGH A WINDOW. WE HAD IT FIVE YEARS BEFORE WE EVER USED IT ON A FIRE. Mutual Aid (is "help" coming), WE USED TO BUY ENGINES THINKING THIS WILL GET US MORE RUNS. IN THE 59 YEARS WE'VE BEEN IN BUSINESS THE SQURT IS THE ONLY PIECE THAT HAS DONE THAT. AND SAYING IS HELP COMING THAT STARTS WITH THE PROPER DISPATCHING. A HOUSE AND YOU KNOW YOU HAVE 2-1-1 ON DISPATCH. THE CLOSET COMPANY IF 10-20-30 MINUTES AWAY. HOW MUCH HOSE ARE YOU GOING TO PULL BEFORE THE NEXT PEICE GETS THERE WITH 4 FF'S ON THE ENGINE. hOW IS THAT ENGINE GOING TO HELP YOU WITH LIMITED MANPOWER? quipment needs, etc. HOW MUCH EQUIPMENT DOES AN ENGINE CARRY? USUALLY TOO MUCH. WALK AROUND AND SEE HOW OFTEN EACH PIECE HAS BEEN PULLED OFF IN THE LAST WEEK, MONTH OR YEAR. TO ME THATS WHY YOU HAVE RESCUES RESPONDING TO STRUCTURE FIRES. As you put all these factors together, then you get an idea of what type of apparatus you need and how it will be configured, and finally, what it will cost. I wish there was some "miracle" answer for you, but there just isn't. There is not a "one size fits all" Engine out there. I'M NOT SAYING ONE SIZE BUT LIMITED OPTIONS CAN HELP REDUCE COST GREATLY.

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Permalink Reply by Randy on October 13, 2008 at 4:20pm

Maybe I am missing something here but each dept has its own needs if you need less get less if you need more get more if your neighboring dept has a 500,000 dollar pumper does that mean you have to maybe not our maybee you need the cafs our purple k if you don't...... don't buy it

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Permalink Reply by Oldman on October 13, 2008 at 4:57pm

With the high cost of fuel, apparatus and equipment, plus operations, maybe we need to go back to a simpler day, as one of the topics I saw "back to the basics.

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Permalink Reply by Bill Muehsam on October 13, 2008 at 5:03pm

Each manufacturer offers different things, from "everything plus the kitchen sink" ($500,000+) to your "bare bones pump and tank"($180,000) Engine Company. Pick what you need, spec it out, and get it built. It can cost alot, it can cost a little. It's up to your department. I hate to add this, but I sell Fire Apparatus on the side. We build to your spec. You (the FD) can put as much, or as littel on an Engine as you want to keep cost down.

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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on October 13, 2008 at 11:38pm

yea right!! It would fit but we'd have to find places for an engine & a tanker.

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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on October 14, 2008 at 12:24am

Case in point of too much equipment - straight bore nozzles 1", 1 1/2", 2", 2 1/2" - stacked up, on the stepside, bracketed to the body. During inventory we noticed that they were gone & everybodys in a tizzy. Who knows how long they have been missing because we NEVER used them.
We are having a discussion now about 1 of our tanker trucks. It is an old truck, referbed fuel tanker to carry water. Its a standard with no power steering. It won't pull the 1800 gal of water it carries FAST but it will get there even up all the hills & through the hollows. We have 3 guys who will drive it. It costs $100 a month for insurance. Its been on 8 calls all year & 5 of them were MA. Another dept made an offer on it & some members think we should sell it. BUT - our last inspection for ISO said we needed another tanker. The new truck has half as much water. Which still leaves us deficient. We need the truck. We can't afford to replace it right now. We aren't spending money on maintenance. When we do replace it, we will certianly pay more in insurance & even though it sits there most of the time not being used. When we need it, its there. We looked @ a heavy rescue (big honkin' truck) $319,000.00. By the time we added trays etc in the compartments & coffin boxes on top & this & that it was almost $460,000.00. It was a demo & not what we really needed. I wasn't very popular because although it was a very "pretty" truck, I wasn't impressed.

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Permalink Reply by Dustin J. Millis on October 14, 2008 at 5:21am

Different departments will always buy custom designed apparatus because no one has the same needs as anyone else. Now of course you can say that all we really need is a pump on wheels with some storage for tools and some hose, but if you really sit down and think, thats not true. Sure, thats what they used to fight fire with but things have changed. If we wanted to stick to tradition, we would still be using bucket brigades to put out fire. The fire service is and has been going through some serious changes and I think that we all must follow.

Now thats not to say I enjoy spending a million on an engine but look at some of the brand new chevy silverados and dodge rams, you get those all hopped up and your looking at sixty or seventy g's. Or think about farmers who pay upwards of 500,000 or more for a brand new combine. Stuff just costs money and as sad as it is to say, I think we may just have to deal with it.

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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on October 14, 2008 at 11:29am

We can end this discussion.
Everyone will purchase QUINTS!
So there.
TCSS.
Art

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Permalink Reply by Jenny Holderby on October 14, 2008 at 12:25pm

There are people around here driving vehicles that cost more than their homes. Drive through the trailer park & you see an Avalanche here and a big Dodge there. Not knocking it its just a statement but it shows were some priorities are. We NEED a quint!! @ this point we decided to go with the rescue/pumper but we have a lot of new construction in our area. Some of the new homes are $400,000.00 3story deals built pretty close together in several different developments in our district. Keep in mind that in the 1990 census there were 9,000 residents in the township. I don't know exactly how much that number has grown in the last 20 yrs or even the last 8 yrs but I know from the traffic & new homes that it is growing faster than any other are in the county. They are building a new medical facility & a senior citizen complex, and a couple more appartment complexes. We have 2 stations but we need 1 BIG enough to house all the equipment.