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Full-Time Firefighters That Work Part-Time with Other Departments
I recently came across a problem within a particular department and would like you guys' input on the situation and any advice on the matter.
Lets say firefighter A is a full time firefighter at XYZ Department. Firefighter A wants to work at another department part time to gain more experience and knowledge as well as supplement income. Firefighter A has had part time jobs before as do most other firefighters in his department do. The chief of the department tells firefighter A that he can't work part time for another department because that is "his" policy. The chiefs policy states that any part time job has to be approved by the fire chief and if approval is granted then the firefighter cannot work more than 20 miles away or 15 mins away response time. In firefighter A's department there is another firefighter, who we will call firefighter B. Firefighter B has a part job that is 45 miles away. And lets say there is another firefighter (Firefighter C). Firefighter C recently started a part time job without the approval of the fire chief. The fire chief has yet to say anything to Firefighter B or Firefighter C on their part time jobs (they aren't with another fire department), but the chief has told firefighter A that he cannot work at another department.
There are laws stating that if you are required to be on call on your personal time then you are to be paid. But the paid time for being on call the person on call must be confined to certain regulations and not be able to go a certain number of milea away etc.
I know there are firefighter that carry pagers and are paged to go to fires all the time and are not paid for on call time, but then again they are not required to respond. Taking that into consideration, then how can the fire chief tell Firefigher A what he can and cannot do on his personal time.
Give me your point of view and any legal advice you have for Firefigher A. What would you do if you were in Firefigher A's position.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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You're right, the Union does not run the department, but departments are not all run the same. We have part time firefighters in the rural areas of the City who may not under any circumstances work in the urban area. If we have a large, all hands fire, they may respond to their own stations in an effort to cover off, but they are not to respond to urban stations to cover off. That opportunity must be given to the fulltime staff that is off at the time, called back for overtime.
A closed shop is exactly that, closed. When agreeing on the terms of a Collective Bargaining Agreement, the terms are set out by both sides. If the Union requests there be no contracting out, no part time employees in the urban fulltime stations and no non-unionized members employed fulltime, and the City agrees to it, then that is the way it will be. Management can not decide to change this without going back to the bargaining table. Its just part of protecting the employee and making sure they are not taken advantage of in the name of the almighty dollar.
As mentioned above, the constitution can and is interpreted differently all over. Municipalities/Unions have the ability to negotiate what they feel best for their members, and with concession bargaining being the most commonly used method, sometimes things have to be given up. If a Union decides that a closed shop is not as important as another issue, then that could be a concession they bargain with. I don't agree with it, but if it works for some, it works.
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Just to clarify; the Union cannot fire or discipline a member. In many municipalities (at least in Canada), the departments are run as closed shops. If you are removed from the Union because you purposefully and knowingly went against the constitution and bylaws, you can be removed from the Union. If you are working in a department that has agreed to being a closed shop, you may not be a member of that department without being a member of that Union, hence losing your position with the department.
There are a few cases pending in the province of Ontario. Firefighters have been let go in the past (I believe Oshawa perhaps) for this. You sign an contract and agree to live by those rules when you join a particular department, then does it not behoove you to do as such? If your department allows it, that's fine. Mine and many around me do not.
Protect your livelihood. John, I had mentioned the exact same thing. If you are a fulltimer working part time in a composite department, you are willingly wronging a brother or sister; potentially taking employment from another. Many don't agree, and that's fine. I would like to think that we would be happy to be protected by legislation and binding contracts, but some feel otherwise.
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Permalink Reply by Kelly Scott Lancaster on
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Its never been about being a hero! Its about watching out for your brother and helping others when they need it the most.
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Permalink Reply by perry firefighter cert on
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My point regarding .being a hero you try so hard to do your best And Be apart of your department. Not only to help public But it seem You have gone The extra mile above Your Required Duty As a fireman you put your engery and skill to work for you in order to advance and grow not to mention the opertunity to be apart Of a second District Where The Possible Chance You will Help People In that area Seem to me A woud Get the support from his captian After All they trained Us to show we care to me you Are valuable person who Gets two thumbs up for wanting To make A difference. In more then one part of town or district to me your a hero I have been a merchant Marine for 5 years and a fireman For 5 ive Been able To do both. Careers I can't. Amagine not Or being told I can't Help or advance I have respect for you if your A
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Permalink Reply by larry jenkins on
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The IAFF frowns on any member volunteering, period. This is not the case. The chief does have the authority to say what type of employment off duty people can perform. Public image of firefighters is 24/7, you wouldn't want a off duty person working in a porn store. You would also not want them to engage in something dangerous either. The chief's policy of only working within a certian mile radius is totally unfair. What's next, you can only go on vacation with 20 miles of the station in case a box comes in?
You certainly don't want your people to get injuried off duty, but is it legal to tell them what they can or can not do. You can't tell me that I can't go SCUBA diving because you think I may get hurt, but you can tell me that I'm not allowed to work in a SCUBA store.
I think only if it looks bad for the department should you be restricted. Working part time in another department is not one of those.
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Permalink Reply by Bob Fiorio on
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Ok let’s cut to the chase here. Firefighter A should not work (monetarily) for another Dept. If he would like to Volunteer with a non-career, or combination Dept. in his area that is fine as he would not be taking away the possibility of employment for someone else. I know the International Association of Fire Fighters stance on Volunteering but they cannot Legal tell their members what to do on their off time this also holds true for Firefighter A’s primary employer, Chiefs Policy or Not. As far as gaining more experience volunteering will give him that experience.
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Permalink Reply by Russ on
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Mike just curious, (i am familiar with the dual membership situation in your area) what happens if a FF who works a second job not related to emergency services gets hurt? Since it's a "union reg" and not a department reg, what does the union do to a member?...Brandon, it seemes that the chief dosent care about "B" and since he dont know about "C", he's looking to head off a problem with "A". As for "his rule" i can only guess that without a department reg in writing, its personal not actually a reg at all. Tough situation bro
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Permalink Reply by Jeff Cole on
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First off, having a second job is nothing new to this profession. "What it" the off-duty firefighter get's hurt banging nails for a part-time job? "What if" he/she get's hurt fixing the roof at home? That issue can be argued for days, with no common agreement. The subject of working part-time for another fire department while being career in another jurisdiction isn't something that's common to many areas.
It is here. Being a seasonal community, with combination department's that staff an engine and EMS units year-round, we hire additional personnel in the busy season to augment our staffing. We have had career personnel cross the lines before. It wasn't an issue because we DO hire extra personnel, and the more experienced the better. They were not taking any "full-time" positions away. However the fact that this can be a dangerous occupation, and the potential for injury would create problems, the practice was stopped.
But again, the same individuals would be in the same situation should they become injured doing any other line of part-time work.
If it is a stipulation that off-duty personnel are required to be available to respond off-duty, thatshould be a contractual situation. Without some form of compensation I doubt there is much legal recourse for being outside of the defined distance. It sounds as if this is the chief's policy. I would bet there is more of a personality clash here.
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Permalink Reply by Chiefy on
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I understand the whys of this one. I've had firefighters work p/t for other departments but if they get hurt it makes for a bad situation. Also they might get rank there but not at their full time department. It becomes complicated. Also the last thing a Chief wants to hear is......"Well Chief ABC said it was ok!"
Tell firefighter A that I hire firefighters to work side jobs in all 50 states. No big rules. Just work.
Contact the Hometown Heroes Workforce
chief@pro-motion.us
www.hometownheroesworkforce.com
248-560-0511
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Permalink Reply by Rick on
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Just another wrench thrown in, if firefighter A is willing to work for less money and no benifits doing the same job how can I in good faith ask for more money and better benifits for my guys. Granted the situation now is not great but to work the same job for less or free just makes the city ask why should we pay for this service. They will do it for free or we can pay them as part time and not provide benifits, which would save them big money.
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Permalink Reply by Brandon Lane on
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No Firefighter A is not union there are no union issued involved, Thanks for the reply though.
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There are no union issues involved here! firefighter A has no affiliation with a union! No such a thing where I am from.
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