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Dry line vs Wet line.
The other training issue/discussion we have had here at my dept. recently is the advancement of dry line vs wet line into a fire structure. The advantages or each and the disadvantages of each. We recently had a fire in the area in which this was a big issue and resulted in the death of 2 FF's. Our deptment conducted some training evo's and found out some key issues that must be addressed and some things that may be a surprise to some. I think that it was believed that advancing a dry line into the structure and then getting water would be faster than advancing a charged line to the seat of the fire. However we found out that is was most cases at least 30-40 seconds slower and in some cases over a minute. Most of this was communications and water to nozzle time. Communication was one of the biggest issues as it often is. With us we have found out as most others have that 8oomhz digital radios pretty much stink on the fire ground operations. I could go on for awhile on this subject, however I just would like some other opinions from you guys. We concluded that barring some rare circumstances there was just no reason to enter a fire structure without a charged line. Now I am talking about a residensial fire not a warehouse fire where abviously circumstances could be different.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Scamehorn on
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I have never in my life heard of anyone entering a structure with a dry line! Must be a east/west coast thing... I have never heard of anyone going into a structure minus a commercial skyrise (W/ A STAND PIPE) wit a dry line... Makes absolutly no sense to me and I would never send anyone into a structure w/ visible flames without water... BACK TO BASICS IS RIGHT!!!!!!
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Permalink Reply by Kimberly A Bownas on
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I agree with everyone, when I took Firefighting Essentials we were told that there is no reason to go into a burning building without a charged hoseline. In our annual OSHA training we also discuss and it is reinforced that you don't go in without a charged hose line. As it has already been said, it is back to basics. I hope I never see one of my members go into a burning building with a dry line. It is just not something you should do. Your safety comes first and then the safety of your fellow firefighters. The charged hose line is for your safety as well as doing the job of putting out the fire.
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Permalink Reply by Dave on
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We run a dry line to the fire floor. Depending on the conditions they will ask for the line to be charged before entering the floor. Food on the stove's usually do not require a charged line, but yet you may have a smoke condition upon arrival. You can usually smell the difference when you pull up, but we still run a line to the door incase it is extended. If you have concerns about objects blocking the line...remove them. Doors are easy to take off with a little practice.
As for never entering a structure without a line....never searched a building above the fire?? Several time I have been to fires where we are searching as the engine is running handlines. Thats for another subject of discussion.
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Permalink Reply by Mark Tanner on
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For safety purpasses a charged line would be much better cause if thing went bad its your only line of defence in getting out alive.And in this job My safety is a number one priority lets all go home when its over .So what if it takes a few more seconds to get to the seat of the fire.And number 2 its not that much harder to take a 21/2 in instead of a 11/2the knock down is much faster and you used about the same amount of water.do the fire flow calculations and see for your self.A totally involved room and contents fire will take the same amount of water out of a 11/2 as it will a 21/2 to put out just alot faster,try it some time.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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So, if you pull up on a high-rise with flames showing from the 8th or 10th floor, you're going to charge a line and advance it 80 or 100 vertical feet instead of taking the line up dry to a floor or two below the fire, then hook into a charged standpipe?
If you're fighting a 4th or 5th floor apartment fire in ordinary (unreinforced masonry with stick-built wood floors) construction, you're going to charge three of four lines at the ground level, and then muscle them up to the fire floor?
I agree with back to basics, but one of the key basics is the construction, occupancy, number of floors, and building size. The fire location, size, and spread, and reading the smoke are also key components.
If you're talking about one or two-story, single-family dwellings of 2,000 square feet or less, then sure, charge the line prior to entry.
If you've never operated farther away from the pump than the reach of a 200-foot preconnect to the 2nd floor, sure, charge it. If you fight fire in multistory buildings, then back to basics includes basic high-rise tactics like taking dry lines up the stairwell and remaining below the fire and/or keeping a fire-rated barricade (fire door) between the engine company and the fire until you have water to the nozzle.
It's not an east-coast/west-coast thing, either. FDNY and LAFD both take dry lines into multistory structural fires where the fire is above the 2nd floor.
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Permalink Reply by Cafryrmn on
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Scamehorn, in Southern California we enter a burning structure with a charged hoseline. Obviously if the its something simple like food on the stove, we are not going to drag a charged hoseline into the structure. As far as a highrise, we would take one below and one above. I do have to admit that I have very little experience with highrise fires. I have fought at least 5 apartment fires with multiple floors. So, I am no expert. I definately agree with you that fire showing requires charged hoselines when entering the structure. Our lives are not worth saving a house.
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Truck and Rescue companies routinely operate near or over the fire without a charged line, even with smoke showing. In multistory residential fires, the truck/rescue can move a lot faster with a can and some tools than engine companies can move with a hoseline, either wet or dry. That's why the term "can job" is so common. It's pretty amazing what a 2.5-gallon pressurized water extinguisher can do to a non-ventilated, pre-flashover compartment fire.
If your department does not operate a truck or rescue company, and you never fight a fire farther away than a preconnect can reach, then by all means charge the line. If you have multistory, multiresidential occupancies, mid-rise office buildings or condos, or high-rise occupancies, you may want to rethink your position of always charging the line first.
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I agree that our lives are not worth a house. Our lives are not worth ANY structure.
However, there are lots of fires in structures other than in houses. What do you do when you have to drag 400 or more feet of 2.5-inch into a big box store, warehouse, or other "wide rise" fire? Are you going to be able to advance it that distance charged with the 3 or occasionally 4-firefighter engine companies that are found on both coasts? Even if you have an engine made up of the Rock and Brian Urlacher with John Wayne as the officer, dragging 400 or more feet through an obstructed wide-rise is going to be pretty tough to do, especially if you want to get water on a large fire before it takes the entire structure.
We are supposed to be doing smart firefighting. That means having more than one tool in our toolbox and being able to use situational tactics. If you only have one way to fight a fire and use single-family dwelling tactics on every fire, sooner or later it will bite you.
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Permalink Reply by KOJOFF on
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To me, its a basic safety issue. You wont find a Police Officer around that is willing to go into a potentially hostile situation with their weapon unloaded, clip in their pocket, right?
Im not going into any structure with smoke showing, that being considered a working structure fire, without a charged hose line in my hand. Same goes for when Im the pump operator, there is no crew working off my engine who will be going into a structure with smoke showing with a limp line.
It just dosent make sense. Not even going up the stairs and finding a window to pull a charged line up to them. They are on the fire floor with the Beast, with out a weapon to defend themselves. Take a line, charged, and the manpower to handle the line in with you.
On the other hand, if we pull up, and there is nothing showing, I am the first to grab the TIC, and a fire extinguisher. Bring a gun to a knife fight, and youre sure to be the one going home.
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To take the police analagy one step farther, should they wear full SWAT body armor, kevlar helmets, and carry a full-auto M-16 or a sniper rifle to take a burglary report? Yes, the cops take their sidearms everywhere they go, but that's the equivalent of a can job for us, not taking a charged 1.75 or 2.5 inch hoseline.
I'm all about charging the line prior to entering fire showing or heavy smoke showing in a single-family dwelling. If I'm going to the 8th floor of a high rise, or the 5th floor of a cut-up ordinary construction apartment fire with fire/smoke showing, then I'm taking a 2.5 inch line up dry to the floor below the fire, calling for water, flowing it prior to advancing, then going after the fire.
Another factor that hasn't been discussed much in this thread is advancing a hoseline up a ladder. The IFSTA Essentials Manual teaches advancing hoselines up ladders either wet or dry. If advancing wet hoselines to an upper fire floor was the only safe way to do it, why would IFSTA teach both as acceptable tactics?
If I'm working a truck or rescue company, then a hoseline is probably a moot point.
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Thats right Mr Waller....Us Rescue guys dont need no stinking line!!!! When we show up the fire goes out in fear!!! =)
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